does anyone have any websites, online descriptions(such as the many postings of john silvers works) pertaining to the use of the axe? from any era, any type and preferbly of European usage. thanks.
I don't study John Silver, and I don't know of any manuals describing axes. Most axeuse in europe is from a time prior to the time we have manuals from. The pollaxe-section in Fiore and helebard-section from other european manuals. But that's only covers 2h.axes (daneaxes) There are some techniques that Re-enacters use in their battles, that is so logical that we can all but asume that they were used in the good ol' days (tm) as well, but whe have no documentations of that whatsoever :cry: Theese (all for 1h.axe, but the hookers can be used for 2h. as well) -are: * Hooking the shield-rim, pulling back, and then cut/stab exposed area * Hooking a weapon, pulling it back, and then cut/stab exposed area * Hooking behind the knee, then pull back to rip out sinew and to make the opponent fall * Hold the axe half way up the shaft so that you can parry incoming attacks on the lower half of the saft, that you rest on your elbow, so that you can thrust/cut inside the opponents guard. * Having a hole through the end of the shaft, have a rope stringed throug that makes a leach that you can have around your wrist (not really a technique as such, but makes it easier to slide the hand up and down along the shaft without fearing that you'll slip it)
Have not practiced the axe for a while but the main thing is to keep it moving. When you keep it moving in front of you a swordsman cannot get in his attack (supposedly). Every weapon from the days of Celts, Norsemen etc are fantastic for fighting but everyone has a weakness.
I have been working with a reconstructed style of axeplay based mostly on Geroge Silvers work for some time now. I am currently working on structering what I have done so far with some new info...hopefully before too long I will set up a page or put together some other resource...for now I would be more than happy to answer any specific questions you might have. ken
where to start? is it really used in a heavy cleaving manner as the large blade suggests? is the reverse side of the head(the blunt part) used as a tool much like a mace? as thats what I picture it as being used. was it a well structured weapon in the same way that swords were taught in a structured manner? was it looked down upon as a base weapon for those without skill? was it effective throughout history or was there a specific time when it became outdated and surpassed by either other weapons or armours?(not guns though as they kind of surpassed everything...) was it in common use? Or was it used by specific groups, such as the Danes? was the axe or the spear the root for the halberd? or was it both that contributed to the weapon?
To start for what? You ask a lot of questions, but keep it simple. The most common axe was the crescent bladed axe. That was an axe that had a large crescent blade and "hook"s on the ends. Swing, get past the shield, pull so the shield is yanked off, thrust so the opposing hook does it's job. That's the main use. I have a 19 inch blade crescent axe, VERY heavy and almost too combersome to be a weapon, but I find very ingenious ways to use it. Hold it vertically in a push, turn around in a raise to ascend the top hook into your enemy before charging a feign sweep. The weapon is guaranteed going to be slow, but extremely powerful if you know when and where to use it. PRACTICE. To my knowledge there was no real guide to using an axe as there were some swords. Western swords were more custom made on request, as I assume most offensive axes were also. No, not all the time. Mostly, yes, but not entirely. The butt end could be swung around, as it can be used to stab also. The axe was used in it's entirity. Opposite end of the haft or just the blade? If it's a crescent blade then the points could be used as hooks and leverages, but the opposite of the haft, yes, much like a hammer(than a mace). There are no real set rules to swinging a weapon besides being taught the "right" way to swing it. A chop with a sword is nothing like a chop with an axe. Just like the "cleave" with a sword is nothing like the "heave" with an axe. But mostly they told you to practice with a sword much like anyone may tell you to practice with the axe. Not really. I don't know of many martial arts that would teach the axe as a regular weapon, unless it's the size of a hatchet or tomahawk which I don't think is what you're talking about. It's more of a specialty weapon, one that has to be looked for to be learned. And no weapon was ever looked down upon, for every single one of them is dangerous in itself. I still use it myself, though I use most every weapon I can get my hands on and practice them religiously. I don't know about the historical relevance, but I'd imagine it was a very devistating weapon in the hands of a skilled user. I seriously doubt armor surpassed such a weapon, very difficult to believe since it can sever an arm easilly. I just think it's combersomeness was seen as difficult to control to the other "easier" weapons. There's a place for everything, I'm sure there was but I don't know for sure, so don't count on my historical reference, other than purpose and placement for select weapons. I'm sure axes were used, but not as famously as other weapons have been, especially considering their efficiency in wartime and out of. I believe the halberd was a weapon contrived in itself. Someone wanted a newer weapon that put more use to the guards that wielded it. The point on the end to keep enemies at distance, to hook on the opposite to pull off armor and weapons as well as to dismount riders. The axe to chop and heave. And the pole wasn't that long as many imagine the original halberds be, some were about the size of the wielder to put more function in the taughter spaces. My advice? Do a little research by using google, it should help a lot by finding out the actual facts. This is jsut the limit of my knowledge, hope it helps even some.
Beeing from Norway, a country that used axes in organized warfare up till the 17th century, I know a bit on axe-traditions over here (but I am no authority on the subject ): The main problem with axe-MA (europe) is that they mainly went out of use/was replaced by the helebard prior to the manuals that have survived the centuries. From the Norse/Iclandic sagas, we know that the axe was in common use by the Vikings and by their predecessors up until the 13th century at least. Theese sagas + archaeological finds and sculptures/pictures give the impression that the 1h axe enjoyed the same status (or allmost; beeing slightly cheaper, they might have come in slightly lesser status than swords). Viking chieftains and kings wore axes as often as swords; the axe is in Norways national-symbol (lion holding a 2h.axe) The baeux tapestry allso depictures both Norman knights and saxons with axes. I believe that the hellebard derives from the 2h.axe for the same reasons as Crimson Demon mentiones (able to hook, pierce and cut), and from the slowly emerging of more systematic warfare with tactics, disipline and strategy, as europe emerged into the renissanse.
I heard differently about the hallberd. The halberd was a weapon in itself. The creators wanted a new weapon for a castle's guards to put more use and defense to the keep. The halberd is purely a defensive weapon, if you take a closer look at it, it served more as a purposeful shield than it did a weapon, especially with it's entire use on one end, imagine using such a weapon in a narrow alleyway. That's what I know and heard. I prefer the naginata over the halberd for function really. If I'm wrong for the halberd, I want to know, I know how to use weapons but learning their history and place is the best part. Really, what all are you wanting to learn, Anomandaris? Is it the size of a hatchet or heaving half of people's bodies off? And yes, there were both types in the Western culture. If you give me a bit, I can try and find some produce to the weapon. Otherwise, just practice repeatatively and make sure you imagine what you can do with it. Also, to be on the safer side, GET A REPLICA!! Imagine swinging around 14 pounds of blade and it slipping in a drooping slope, you're gonna be asking, "where'd my foot go?" It goes to the same pattern as most weapons do, deception. Do actions like leading into one attack and instantly switching to another. It's what it really depends on, getting your attack to your enemy with the time and effect. AND PLEASE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE!! SAFELY AND WITH THE BASICS!!!
Well, it was used in duel-fighting one on one in the 1410's (it's in fighting-manuals there, and is used in several ways, not only using one end. It's primary function was in battlefields, where you use them to hook knights, unsaddeling them, then killing them. They work wonders in narrow alleys as well, but some speculate in wether shorter pole-arms Glaiv, longsword, morning-star, etc. actually worked better, as beeing shorter makes it easier to turn in theese narrow alleys than the helebard. It's the helebard and dane-ace's similar uses that leads me to speculate wether the helebard derived from dane-axes or wether the helebard is a re-envention of an earlier lost quality, or wether it was the result of somebody thinking ey; what if we put an axeblade onto a spear! I don't know You don't know Nobody really know Nobody will ever find out, the fact is lost in the murk alleys of past history :bang: We can only speculate, and that is fun. Just one more thing; the 2h.axe/daneaxe/helebard is used much more like a spear than like -say- a sword, making small circular movements in front of you, opting for an opening, then striking with the tip of the blade (the speartip in the case of the helebard) the big swings are only for killingblows after incapasitating the opponent; they take far too much time to pull through if the opponent is alive and kicking. Axeblades should never weigh 14 pounds. 1h.axeheads found in norway (from viking-time) weigh around 1,5 - 2 pounds, and the daneaxeblades weigh up to 7 pounds.
Mine does, 14 pounds. And it's built functional too. It was custom made at the renaissance festival and got it for 400. Mostly it's just an enormous weapon, but I can handle it fairly easilly. And mostly I was only told it was a new device to guard an insecure castle. Never really looked at a 1v1 all that seriously *ponders*. Sounds like it's rather intense for a weapon more than I thought, thanks for pointing that out. I still could swear that I can only find it's most purpose on one end. I mean the pole, sure, I could see some use there, but not entirely all of it's use considering it's tempting to use just the head of the weapon. Also, bad news, Anomandaris. I have been looking but haven't really been able to find anything directly relating to axe use aside from the axe pairs in mainstream martial arts. Good luck.
well you got yer axe at a renfair which tend to not be well known for high quality or historically accurate weapons. And 14 pounds is WAAAAAAAAY heavy for a weapon, it may well be extremely functional for hewing trees and such. All I know is that ive hefted sledges about that weight, between 10 and 15 pounds, and there is no where i would ever use seomthing so cumbersome as a weapon, and asledge has a simlar ewight distrubution as an axe. You should do a search for Jue de la Hache (sp) its a a medieval French manuscript on the knightly pollaxe which is seome what differnet from a daneaxe but its still simlar. Also there is at least on German manuscript on the 2hand axe http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/JakobSutor.pdf http://www.aemma.org/onlineResources/sutor/contents_body.htm here are two links to transcriptions of it.
Weights of Weapons A Claymore of around 52 inches should weigh around 4 pounds, I would say, not 14lbs. A claymore also has more of a balance to it than an Axe, which obviously carries its weight in the head. Pugil
OK, OK: It's time to start categorizing before this thread starts evolving into a cleaving-contest Some like fantasy-axes and want to learn how to use theese, paying no regard to actual historical ma's, just shopping from any ma that is out there Some like historically or present day-actual weaponaxes and want to learn how to use theese, paying no regard to actual historical ma's, just shopping from any ma that is out there. Some like historically correct axes and want to try to find out how they were used in the time-period they were designed. All three options are fine by me, as long as we don't confuse eachother, talknig past eachother. Some facts on viking axes; the only axes I really know anything about: They had narrow blade or broad blade. The narrow-bladed ones (those to the left on the attached picture) weigh no more than 1 pound, and actually doesn't have much worse balance than a stick the broad-bladed ones (those to the right on the picture) weigh closer to 2 pounds, and some weighted as much as 8 pounds. The heaviest of theese are thought to have been used on 2h.shafts. What all viking-war-axe-heads had in common was that they were extremely thin/slim (under 5mm = .3 inch?), and often only the hole for threading on the shaft and the edge is found by the archaeologists; the part between is rusted away Wether Crimson Demon can fight properly with a 14 pound axehead must stand for his acount; I'm not convinced. I'm pretty sure that if he ever encounter someone that have learned historical MA, be it weastern or eastern, he should loose
oh I love that. 'with special handle design that prevents the axe head spiding down the haft or flying off! The competition lacks this!' oh dear... thanks for the info. I'd like to find out more on viking axes if you can. I'll read through the posted links too in a while.
Using the Pole-Axe [pollaxe] Check out 'Medieval Combat - A Fifteenth-Century Illustrated Manual of Swordfighting and Close-Quarter Combat' written by Hans Talhoffer. There is an English version of the book Translated and Edited by Mark Rector. It has a section containing around 25 illustrated pages on the Pole-Axe. The book is published by Greenhill Books, London, and by Stackpole Books, Pennysylvania. The ISBN is: 1-85367-418-4 Pugil
Really depends on the axe design in my experience. I think it is often overlooked that an axe can give a powerfull thrust with just the end. My small exposure to the living Hungarian axe tradition has shown me this. it definitely can be. Just grab an axe and see what damage you can do with the back whether there is a pole or not. Interesting account from the Sub-Carpathian region from the 19th century talk of someone getting cracked upside the head with the non-business end of a walking axe. I am sure in some cultures and within some groups there must have been a methodology taught but really there is not too much surviving in the historical texts for one reason or another. This really depends on the culture and time period. From the Stone Age to it being a common weapon among the Carpathian folk in WWI...can't compete with a gun but it has and probably always will have it's place in combat. I think one would be hard pressed to find a culture that had never used the axe as a weapon. Not usre of the exact history but to the Halberd is a big axe with a spear point....sort of a bloated poleaxe if you will. As for 14 lb axes.......not even for chopping wood unless your last name is Bunyan
