Text Books for 4th - 5th - and above?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tulsa, Aug 7, 2011.

  1. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    speaking as third dan i would love a sophisticated resource to stimulate my mind and polish my confidence with our hoshinsul material. i just don't have the education at the moment to break down the biophysics(?) of say, why throwing my hips into a shoulder throw under my partner's waist would be more efficient than another method(like the good old outside-of-the knee trip variation). we just do it and it works... but i want more!

    hate to say it, but i really dig some of the stuff tae joon lee is doing in his cyber dojang. although he does not delve into the physics of what he is doing, he often explains why he is NOT doing alternative or extra motions. thoughts?
     
  2. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    also, maybe with a deeper knowledge of principles sets can be taught in a way that future generations can teach in greater detail. maybe, just maybe, even add some new stuff that is actually usefull. for example, i found super ei in jae ap sul:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6y51ZT8q6o&feature=related"]Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai - Inoue Yusuke - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK....true enough.... but I would also like to point up something that maybe might offend but is not intended that way. Please bear with me.

    As I write this I have a copy of KODOKAN JUDO by Kano in front of me. As I read these descriptions of the techniques, even though they are beginning techniques, the descriptions themselves are (IMHO) much more detailed---brief and concise. Compared to these, I also have copies of my own teacher's books as well as those by Dr. KIMM He-young and the KS 2-book set. The descriptions are no-where near as well written.

    I share this because I wonder if the effort is actually two -fold. One is to provide more sophisticated assessment of the technique in its execution. Perhaps the other is to deal with integrating that newer presentation with what may be a "flawed" original presentation. Again...no offense intended. I just wonder if this should be taken into account. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    no offense taken here sir, i've seen the old hapkido vids and the old kuk sul vids. i often wonder why the old guard get so much credit when the best execution and explanation of techniques are done by the second and third gens.
     
  5. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i am not thinking another sourcebook is what is intended though, mr sims, and i dont think it's a manual on proper execution. as a matter of fact, i dont know what IT is, because i have no part in its creation nor do i have the knowledge to contribute. however, there is always a market for a solid textbook. we purchase it, we can study it, we can all take our knowledge to the next level, teach it, and then we can proliferate it. thoughts?
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Agreed. I had always been of a mind that if the old masters were half as accomplished as might be thought they could have done something a bit more polished. Certainly the Japanese masters seem very accomplished at expressing themselves. For myself, I have felt that a great many people have moved well-beyond the "Dick-and-Jane" level of examination and deserve something that respects their ability to reflect and consider. Evewn something as simple as adding a requisite to instructions such as the use of the "clock principal" (IE. "Off balance to the 2 o'clock position") would at least be an improvement over "remember to off-balance your opponent", yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    something like this:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6zFG2eDkRg&feature=related"]Katsuyuki Kondo, Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, part 3 - YouTube[/ame]

    or like this:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXhxsreddQQ&feature=related"]Ninjutsu - Ude Gatame - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    You believe in that garbage? 1:36 (and lots of other places too) is classic!
     
  9. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Second video at 1:43 "He will attack like this"... What's this, the Jim Carey school of Knife defence?
     
  10. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    About as useful: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFX3HrWMLZI"]Jim Carey Self Defense - Not a Dekiti Tirsia Siradas video - YouTube[/ame]

    And this is how most non-martial arts people view us anyway!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2011
  11. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i get it sir. i will never bring a dan-do to a balisong fight.
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, SK.......
    If I can put on my teacher hat for a second I would evaluate the second clip----the animated one---- as having a clear advantage. Here are some of the points I see----and I am comparing this to the DRAJJ clip just before.

    1.) The film clip has far too litte contrast both between the individuals and the background. The animation uses much stronger contrat, which, when used with the pause function wound allow the individual to see exactly (albeit idealized) the placement of limbs relative to each other and the torso.

    2.) The film clip must take a long view in that the style of practice for DRAJJ requires considerable space to perform the entire protocol of the encounter. The animation can take a closer view as well as shifting the POV as needed and even incorporate a "micro view" (IE. detailed close-up) of hand placement and movement where needed.

    3.) The animation can allow for executing debilitating....perhaps even lethal... techniques that practically could not be done in training. This would be an excellent opportunity to demonstrate, or consider, intended outcomes.

    I could recommend that the animation be capable of both full-speed and half speed execution.

    Just some varied thoughts.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  13. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    In no way do I want to diminish your suggest. I found the website very informative. I comment only to make sure that folks go to the area entitled "Instructors" and read though the approaches and attitudes associated with each facet of the art. I think you will find that there is good correlation with KUK SOOL as espoused in the Black 2-Book texts. Of course, I am only speaking as an outsider. Perhaps somer who have studied KUK SOOL for a while might want to comment further.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    And that's not all, if willing to borrow from CMA to infuse it into KMA, then you might as well visit the animal forms page of that website for its content (and simply substitute BEAR for LEOPARD). :rolleyes:

    http://www.hkhunggar.com/c_animals.htm
     
  16. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    well the journey began with an interest in trapping. watched a few chunner vids, checked out a few pages, and thought to myself 'hey! why not look in the direction that our kuk sul forefathers looked for curriculum structure?'

    after seeing a few sites, i noticed the term '12 bridges' coming up over and over again. again, there is plenty of info out there on the methods which the hung family fist traps and subdues an opponent.

    its cool to see how straight forward are with information tkma masters hold so dearly.
     
  17. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Mmmmm...not so sure, Unknown......

    IMHE there are some CMA traditions which seem to have lent themselves to more exploitation. The result is that what we have today is pretty corrupted from what the art was a while ago. Shaolin traditions are one such instance, Long Fist is another and Five Animals is yet another.

    Sometime back I went on a hunt for Animal Traditions and most of what is found today are reconstituted practices from the Early 20th Century. Even the Northern traditions seem to be Animal Traditions that went South and came back North, or were contrived in the North to begin with. The single biggest point of controversey seems to be just WHAT makes a movement "animal". Many seem to think it is the biomechanical similarity between the animal behavior and its Human mimic. Another line of thought is that the movement reflects the "nature" (IE the attitude or approach) which is reflected in the daily conduct of the animal or its relationship with the environment. Like the debate about CHI, Nobody is right....and Everybody is right, ne?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  18. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    when looking into the past of kuk sul, one has to go as far back as the central national martial arts academy in nanjing. i read a couple articles in JAMA, and it seems as if there were a multitude of traditions represented and a curriculum was created from the best of that material. sonething about a competition of fighters and when only a dozen or so were left the gov decided to use their stuff.

    it's funny to see how many of the ideas and methods found their way into our syllabus. im thinking though that at a master level position, learning the animals/elements are more theoretical. our teacher is known to ask us to watch how specific animals hunt(mainly the bear, tiger, and crane), but when questioned about the '5' animals he told a few of to watch all animals.
     
  19. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    BTW sims sabeomnim, i'd imagine that the 18+ methods you researched are almost as abstract. what do you think?
     
  20. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    For the record, Bruce, I was being sarcastic. :evil:


    ALL that aside, the leopard motions are said to be short & fast, whereas the the bear motions are short & powerful. The leopard creates balance through agile footwork, whereas the bear creates balance from a more solid footing, albeit not lethargic in the least. These two animal totems can therefore be interposed, thus allowing koreans to hold onto their BEAR mythology, all the while stealing ideas/concepts from CMA in order to shore up any gaps in their own (j/k - sorta/kinda). The fact that the bear is almost NEVER mentioned in terms of actual kuk-sool techniques, is why I offered all this up, tongue-in-cheek of course (the bear palm is about all there is, and even then the tiger palm is much more heavily stressed when it comes to palm techniques, and why I lament the bear totem). In kuk-sool, the totems of eagle & praying mantis (which also aren't included in that list of chinese animal totems) get much more credence than the bear. They just aren't suited to be swapped out for the leopard (the one animal totem which is absent from the kuk-sool register, for some reason or another). I've also known some koreans who preferred to call the 4-knuckle fist, "bear paw" (for obvious reasons pertaining to their ORIGIN myth) but I originally learned this specific hand position as "leopard's paw" when studying CMA, and this is why I made the mental connection in the first place. Of course, GM IHS bypasses all this nonsense by simply calling it, "4-knuckle fist" (sa ji gwon; 사지권).

    FWIW, two other animal totems which are often seen in CMA (just not in that hung gar list), are the monkey & the deer/stag. So this sort of discussion could go on all day long. :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2012

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