Hey all, I was batting around the idea of trying a testosterone suppliment. My diet is okay, I get plenty of protein, my routine is in order... generally everything is above average. I'm not looking for a specific gain, but more curious about the effects I would see. So... a few question: -Does anyone have any experience? I know that Colucci wrote that review of Alpha Male (can't find the link now), and he made me want to try it. However, it is also very expensive. Also, it isn't a pure test supp, which leads me to question 2. -What exactly is the best way to take a supp like this? I've tried glutamine, creatine, thermogenics, and now a test suppliment is the next thing I'm curious about. However, I don't know anything about the way testosterone supps are actually processed in the body; does anyone? What is the expected difference in effect between a product like Alpha Male and something like Tribex? (I'm hoping for more specific info than what is on the T-Nation store blurb ) -Has anyone tried an estrogen blocker, a la REZ-V? I know less about this sort of supp than I do about a Test supp. Any advice/knowledge/experience appreciated. -Finally, given the differences in prices of just these 3 products, is there one product that would seem to be worth more bang for the money spent? I'd be lying if I said I didn't care about the difference in price between the $20 bottle and the $50 bottle.
I've not got an actual answer to your question but an interesting side note. I'd read somewhere (can remember where) that testosterone production is related to the shape and symetry of your face (and perhaps by extension your body) the study I'd read or the article I read referenced said that someone had tested the testoterone levels in two groups... those with the classic symmetrical alpha-male head... you know... square strong jaw, prominant brow - sort of your average hero or quarterback look. They then compared those with people who's facial features were asymetrical... longer head, etc... it turned out that men with more symetrical shaped features and heads produced on the average more testosterone. lol... What the hell any of that means... I have no idea. I doubt if I can find the article but I'll try. The link below somewhat echo's the gist of what I'd read in the article I mentioned above: Summary? With testosterone supplements you could be copulating earlier with more willing partners. edit to further meander in your post: http://www.bbsonline.org/Preprints/OldArchive/bbs.mazur.html interesting stuff - some real gems in there:
Hmmmm...so that's where our tax dollars go-mashing bull testicals in the name of research. I don't think I'll be volunteering for that job. Cuch, I think you want something that is a bit more potent than tribulus. There's stuff out like pro-hormones. It just depends on how much you want to mess with your hormone levels or what results you want. If I was going to go with anything stronger than tribulus, I wouldn't mess with anything other than nolvadex or something similar.
Interesting stuff. Out of my league... but fascinating the way they manage all of this sort of thing. Wow. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm
trib, just made me horny pro-H are a dodgy area as most are a waste of time yet the ones like superdrol, M1T are very close if not classified as steroids and banned as such in different countries. Steroids? Not for MAP discussion IMO
Thanks for the replies all! @slip That is interesting; isn't is also kind of intuitive? I mean, even the little that I do know about hormones would lead me to believe that if you gave an animal that is on the low end of the social scale a whole bunch of ass kickin' hormones, the animal would get agressive and move up the social heirarchy. Isn't that article basically the beginning of hormone science? @BS, TkdGuy; et al So, if I understand you correctly, any of the listed testosterone supps that I were to try probably wouldn't be strong enough to really give results, and if I want results then I'll have to start thinking about steroids/muscle injections?! Is there no middle ground? I'm not interested or dedicated enough to go the steroid route, but is that the only way to get any sort of measurable results? We can talk about them in the abstract, right? I don't want to give details about use (not that I could), but in the context of a discussion about testosterone and hormones, they are the 800 lb gorilla in the room.
Yeah I deal with this one a fair bit actually. Many of the guys I've had to fight have the classic strong jaw, prominent brow look. Frankly speaking some of them look like down right knuckle dragging killers. Which is nothing like me... I guess I look rather academic oriented by comparison. So it does make me wonder about the difference in testosterone levels in people. For instance steroid usage amongst women bodybuilders gives them the pronounced jaw - that heroic jaw you see in so many male body builders which is (correct me if I'm wrong anyone) a direct result of steroid usage. I'm in the same boat as you... I don't really have the inclination nor the dedication to go the whole steroids route... that I can get to 198lbs on a clean healthy diet with a good training cylce is enough for me... but interestingly enough... I'd never... fricken ever fight at that weight.... the guys fighting at that weight are killers... my actual fight weight is about 170lbs for the last year or so. So when I weigh in on the same scale as my opponent and fight a good fight... yet his pecs, biceps, lats and just about everything else are massive and rounded... sculpted even... I've got to wonder about the difference in testosterone ouput between our bodies. It's interesting stuff to read up on anyhow... massively complex the human body is in that respect. I wouldn't mind finding a middle ground with supplements... but I guess I've for many years prided myself on the fact (however warped this may sound) that I can fight a good fight in my weight class and go toe to toe when I need to... but out of the ring and the gym still be a friendly guy who is not a bad chap to have a cup of coffee with or step out for a pint with. Sometimes I wonder if test supplements and that sort of being are not at odds with one and other.
Ok, no details about how to buy, where to buy etc. Basically using roids like Test, Dianabol cycled of course with Nolvadex etc. can be used in two ways: To Speed up what you could happily do naturally, ie making it take about 20% of the time Or to do what you can't do naturally. In your case its the first. If you REALLY want to find out about it www.muscletalk.co.uk is in my opinion the only place to go where you can get full details and proper details from experienced pros/competitors.
you can happily speed up the muscle building process on gear if you are far from your natural limit but that involves lumping on 30lbs on your first cycle. Healthy? Plus people who are far from their natty limit will have a reduced idea on what diet, training scheme works bets for them so effectively they would be wasting their money.
So, let me try to recap again, just because I want to make sure that I've got what everyone is saying. I lift 3x/week, do a moderately intense circuit style routine that has lots of big lifts and a few isolated lifts as I feel like it. I eat lots of protein, try to eat 6 times a day, generally eat more than I should (I'm a reformed fat kid, so my diet is my weakest point) and do some sort of cardio (usually anaerobic, but recently aerobic) 2x/week. I get between 6-9 hours of sleep/night (I am in law school). Here's my problem- sometimes I feel like I'm too worn down to have a good lift, or like I should be getting more out of my lift than I am. I have recently plateaued in my gains, and I think this confirms my feeling that my lifts could be better. That's why I asked about test supps. The response that everyone is saying is that, when it comes down to it: -most legal test supps are basically a waste of money -the only viable test suppliments are, basically, steroids/perscription compounds -there doesn't seem to be a middle ground for guys like me-who want a little extra from a supp but don't want to break the bank and don't want the commitment that real steroids entials (plus, I hate needles). Edit- responses @TKD I agree that 30 lbs of muscle in a short period of time is not healthy. But more muscle is healthy, and I want more muscle. @count Thanks for the link, but I don't want specifics, and I don't even really care about steroids that much. I'm still kind of shocked that they are the only proven next step. @slip You know, I was thinking about what you said, and I think that it's true that the strongest guys I've known have generally looked like thugs. However, the best fighters I've ever known (thaiboxers I mean) looked like anything but- one of my former Krus was a masters level political scientist, and he was an international pro champion. He was strong, but just disgustingly quick and a tremendously smart fighter. Another Kru of mine relied more on being a craftier fighter than a stronger fighter. In fact, the best fighters I knew were technicians who happened to also be fast, not guys who were naturally strong. Does this resonate with you? I mean, as big as I am, I used to love getting in the ring with guys who tried to thug out on me because they'd go down like a tree.
I tried both a trib/zma stack as well as alpha male, and neither had much effect to be honest. I'm only 25, and a lot of my training/diet has gone towards promoting my hormone levels. Although I can't afford to get any tests done, I don't think trib or alpha male offer much of an advantage until your natural testosterone levels are dipping a bit, ie due to age. You're a year younger than me, and so long as you're getting enough fats in your diet and lifting heavy, test levels shouldn't be a problem.
lol, 30lbs of weight gain regardless of muscle or fat in short space of time IS UNHEALTHY! the heart has to cope with an extra 30lbs of mass to lug around and has to beat harder to pump the blood through the larger muscles. yes yes there is something called patience, hard work and motivation.
You don't want test supps you want a workout stimulant of some variety and more sleep. If you want more info. on the stimulants just ask. If that isn't working and you are physically too tired then you aren't getting enough sleep or proper nutrition.
That's fair, and it's probably correct. Actually, that has been my solution- trying to get 9 hours of sleep a night instead of 8. But saying "get more sleep" doesn't really help. The reason I asked about testosterone supps is because they are gaining popularity (or maybe visibility). And there is almost no information about them outside of the usual advertising. re: other stimulants Could you please give me more info? I would appreciate that. I've had good results with thermogenics (especially ephedra, which I'm no longer interested in). However, when I was taking thermogenics I was also really regulating my diet, so that could have been why I got results. All other supps I've tried didn't seem to do anything- including creatine and glutamine. I just didn't notice any difference. The best suppliment I've ever had is a cup of strong coffee before a workout. I mean, does anyone who trains with frequency have any use for a suppliment? Is there something you take that makes your lifts and/or the results measurably better? Awww, c'mon- that's not fair either. I train very consistantly. I orient my day around it. But, like everyone else here, if I can make my results better/faster at a reasonable cost (including legality and permanent health costs) I'd be interested in it.
Supplements supplement what you are already doing/eating etcetc. However, get more sleep. Basically sleep is the main time we recover and grow. If you are tired you are either anaemic, not getting enough carbs or not sleeping... or of course the whole lot. To sleep more go to bed early, get up later etc. If you are tired in the afternoon and you need a nap have one, especially if you lost sleep the night before. You may not recover as much but yu will certainly be more alert. Carbs are your energy, try eating more stuff like pulses.. oats are a good one. Bannanas are nice too. If neither of these make you feel better go to your doctor and ask for an Iron Deficient Anaemia test. Its a single thing of blood, takes about 2 weeks. If you aren't anaemic then you are overtraining. I think I have covered most things. Edit: I said Basically waaay too much
Well, Testosterone is a naturally occurring anabolic hormone, but anabolic steroids are different. Natural Testosterone boosters like ZMA are a mixture of Zinc, Magnesium and Vitamin B-6, all healthy and (unsure of this) proven to boost your Test levels slightly. Not worth the money though.
Thing is, the body is pretty big on homeostasis. What generally happens with hormonal suppliments is that you will have excess for a while, until the body figures out that there is too much of a hormone running about. Then it will reduce its own production of the hormone until you end up with the same amount of hormone as before, or as close to as you can get. Of course, if you stop abruptly, you are without the hormone all together for a while. Which is bad. Very, very bad. In all, hormonal suppliments are not to be played about with without doctor supervision.
Thanks for your reply. I only take my Centrum daily multivitamin Don't health food stores or somewhere sell creatine capsules? Their meant to repair damaged tissue faster than normal. Do they have any side effects?
