The way a person responds is predictable because the human body is bound by the laws of physics. Such as "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" you see clear and predictable. If I lift a person up in the air and let go they will fall down again just as if I throw a ball in the air it will fall down. If I throw a ball to an accomplished catcher they will accuratley predict it's motion and catch it. Your argument is like saying "the only way they could do that is if they had telekinetic powers and can attract the ball to their hands which is obviously rubbish so anyone who says they can is a fool or a liar." Not so, if someone said that their premise is simply wrong and the laws of motion are not fully understood. You may say that a person's actions in a fight are not predictable because they can suddenly decide to change their movement. Well this is true but they can only do so within certain parameters. A man falling from a building can choose to stretch out or curl up but cannot choose to stop falling. An accomplished fighter can adjust to those changes that are possible just as the catcher can quickly and accurately adjust for a sudden (unpredictable) gust of wind and still make the catch.
I'm quite confused are you saying that you think someone could or could not make someone with no experience of Tai Chi react that way by doing the exact same thing to them? I honestly don't believe that anyone could make me react like that and I'm curious if people on here believe they can make non compliant people react like that. You in particular live in London cloudhandz, right? If so and you claimed to have this ability I would love for you to demonstrate it to me and I don't mean that as some macho challenge either. I mean it in the sense that I am genuinely skeptical and if you could make me react in that way I would be very impressed and shocked. Also, while I don't do Tai Chi when I did Wing Chun I did come across practitioners who during Chi Sau could seemingly control my movements by doing quite relaxed movements so Im not oblivious to the fact that people can seem relaxed and put people off balance easily etc. I'm not discounting that but what I am discounting is the insane reactions in the video links posted... do you think that anyone on here could make non compliant people react like that? It might interest you to know that I also a number of years back practiced a kind of relaxed sparring which was mostly a mix of chi-sau/push hands with some friends who did Tai Chi. I don't mean that this in any way gives me in depth experience with Tai Chi but I just mean to point out that I am not completely oblivious to push hands and the like.
Well I can. It is you that seems to be unable to let go of this and you that will not accept the pros to my training methodology. I have at no point critisised your taiji just defended the insults directed at my teacher, my system and me. I have even pointed out that I don't doubt your fighting ability. Also I claim no magical powers for anyone in my system it is YOU that seems obsessed with the notion that this can be the only explanation. You ask us to "accept once and for all that different training methodologies have different pros and cons and that no one has magical powers at the end of the day" and then drop in an incredibly inflammatory comment at the end indirectly accusing me of being "an enemy of reason".
Hi cloudhandz. First of all can I say that I think it would be a great idea to train with Jin. It is hard work but he is a very pleasant and accomplished man. I'm not sure if he talks of stretching and unstretching, his method is more traditional than my teacher's but the result is the same. Also he is one of the "fakers" in the video clip of master Huang so you can actually talk to someone who was involved!! I have no doubt that when you see his Fajin you will see how closely related it is to Master Huang's and be better able to judge what you see in the clips yourself. I think another thread about Jin is a good idea but to be honest I don't fancy it if it's going to cause the kind of trouble that has been occurring in this thread. We could give it a go and see what happens. I certainly have no problem discussing it in public - "there are no secrets in taiji, just things too small for people to see" and all that.
Sorry cloudhandz, I meant to reply to your question about opening and closing as well. There is a connection between opening and closing and stretch and unstretch but I am not sure I know enough to discuss it in detail here. I'm trying to stick to things I feel pretty sure about. Certainly when the stretched muscle of the back thigh (in bow stance) unstretches both kua open and that opening passes up the joints of the body in a wave. However it may be possible to create a similar wave of opening using sequential contractions in the body as opposed to sequential unstretching.
The Huang clip can be done as they are all just being put off balance and pushed away. They aren't dancing on the spot like demented frogs. If the practitioner can put you off balance he can then push you away and you'll either stumble for a few feet, or fall over. Maybe not as far as the cooperative students, but something pretty similar. No mysticism or anything, just lack of balance. I always try to make it difficult for my teacher to get an effective push on me, but if he can (and he does) totally break my root, he can then send me stumbling across the room. Normally I only go a foot or so as I regain my root/balance. He also does this to new push hands students to show what can be done with it (push hands). You aren't going to learn if it doesn't work are you? The other one? I really doubt it.
Wee Kee-Jin, mentioned earlier in the thread. His name is just coincidence but I should have spotted the potential for confusion. Well I say it is just coincidence, perhaps it is fate, destiny and something to do with the Qi of the whole cosmos - what do you think Joanna? :love:
It depends. If you followed the script and it was someone of that ability then yes. By following the script I mean doing what is expected of you and no more to demonstrate this or that skill. It doesn't mean you going all out to wrestle the guy to the floor. First off i don't claim any such skill. i don't even practice this type of thing. Doesn't mean i can't appreciate the skill shown. Even if you are following the script it takes skill to be effected in those ways. of course i'm not talking about the 'empty force' stuff which in my view gives away completely the mindset and compliance of the students. as being 'under the spell'. Anyway I'd be more than happy to let you wrestle me anytime. Funnily enough i did this with an old mate of mine the other day. Admitedly he is not in great shape, but still a fairly strong guy (not a 9 stone weakling) but he couldn't get near me as in move me - I was stationary and his brief was to move me. I moved/pushed him around and about a bit without too much trouble, whilst not letting him get to me. Not that it was easy or anything - I never sent him flying away (moved him maybe 2 or 3 feet away) or did I make him act in a funny way.. Then did some moving step (like judo without the gi) and i put him down comfortably. I then showed him an escape from a rear bear hug which put him on his ass. Then we stopped. (I think he'd had enough ) If that's the sort of thing that interests you then we can meet if you want. But nothing like those clips ok. I think the reactions can be explained. You will not react like that unless you 'follow the formula' of THAT particular training method. If you 'just did this' and nothing else to someone of that ability. You would be effected. What you have to remember is that students in some types of tai chi schools are trained to react in certain ways for various reasons. Like jumping up and down. There are reasons for it apparently. But I don't train in them or know anything much more about them. I agree they look silly to me too. No. These people in the vids are not 'non compliant' anyway.. not the way me and you would see it. ie. fully resisting as in fighting it/'fighting' back. I have had something demonstated on be that at the time was bewildering (nothing like what was shown) Later on I understood it. It still didn't take away the skill factor. Also at the time I didn't understand how i was being compliant.. Put it this way - i didn't want to be effected as i was, but i still was. But i wasn't fighting the dude. Anyway what i am talking about is very different to what is being shown. If we meet i'll tell you ALL about it. To give you an idea as what i'm trying to get at. Cool. We're in the same town so if you fancy hooking up for training - I'm happy to meet with anyone, and have done before even for a bit of a throwdown (forever young, liokault). I'm off on holiday soon, maybe when i get back if you're interested in whatever.. up to you. regards
The video clip of Master Huang and his students is 15-20 years after the match with the wrestler. This could account for the difference but I take the point. By the way I also have huge respect for Ma Yueh Lang. His teaching has influenced my school greatly even though it is not Wu style that I practise.
Right threads back open. Please keep discussion civil and respect each others opinions even if you do not agree. Thread will be locked permanently at the slightest sniff of trouble. Big brother is watching you.
There Are No Secrets Thanks for that, CH. This is the sort of thing I was getting at. Students jump up and down because they have been taught to - not because of "the Masters incredible uncanny powers." Now if a few more people were honest and just came out and admitted such things, Tai Chi would be a lot better off. If the style was taught and discussed in an open and honest way, and such issues were explained and rationalised, people could no longer exploit the culture of secrecy for their own ends. I'm aware that if you do not root when being pushed and try to remain vertically aligned and in a combat stance throughout (i.e. without stepping), the effect can be not unlike a stone skimming across the surface of some water. If you are taught to maintain those priorities, a little "skimming" could happen fairly naturally at normal combat speed and with real momentum. But it doesn't happen at the kinds of speeds shown in the clip unless the students have been told to do it on purpose. As I understand it, jumping up and down on purpose is a mistake - it shows a lack of understanding and it is open to exploitation. It is like so-called "shaking jin." Some teachers teach their students to deliberately wriggle their arm, a bit like a vibrating pole. This is another affectation - at full speed, a relaxed whippy arm might reverberate a little. Trying to recreate these effects consciously in slow motion is counterproductive as it engages your muscles in a completely artificial and innacurate way - muscles are contracted that would and should be relaxed if the technique was performed properly. Secrecy and deception leads to mistakes and exploitation. Let's face it, just because you reveal how something is done, doesn't mean people will actually be able to replicate it without a fair bit of training. It isn't unreasonable for people to see such films and feel skeptical. To show such films without explanation is a form of deception because they are misleading. We don't all want to indulge in fantasies about amazing Masters with super powers. If I was starting out, I wouldn't pick Tai Chi or the other so-called "internal" styles. I'd stick to things that were taught in a more rational and less covert manner, especially now that I know that many other styles teach openly what Tai Chi tries to keep secret and guess what - there are a lot less mistakes along the way and the progress is often faster. I was very lucky that some of my teachers taught what I needed to know without mystery, without subterfuge, without ceremony and without secrecy. CKava got a bit of flack for not being a Tai Chi practitioner - as it turned out, he does have some experience. I see from his profile that his main arts are Muay Thai and BJJ. Seems like a good combination to me. I'm sure if he needed to defend himself or his friends or family from an attacker, he'd be in a reasonable position to give them a run for their money. Isn't that what martial arts are all about? And I bet his teachers don't get him to jump up and down when someone tries to push him over... Wolfe was right in some ways, you know - There Are No Secrets worth keeping secret. Ever onward to more openness and greater understanding! Please accept this post in the spirit it is intended - it is not a hostile post, just an appeal for less secrecy and suspicion. And maybe if people don't want clips to be criticised, they shouldn't post them and say "what do you think of this?" Sound fair? Regards, Joanna
Can I just clarify which clip we are talking about? "Amazing Qi Power" or the Master Huang clip. If it is the Master Huang clip I would just like to say that students in this style are most definitely NOT taught to jump up and down. I know, I'm one of them. For me it is not what they are all about, it is one aspect of what they are about. Er, didn't you post the "Amazing Qi Power" clip and ask me what I thought?!!!! [/QUOTE]
Hey Joanna, I just found this in the thread titled "Earle Montaigue": It bugs me when people just jump in and say insulting things about people, that are not really based on any knowledge. I reckon the phrase "no investigation, no right to speak" is generally a good rule. If anyone is unsure about the guy, maybe they should go and train with him - find out what he's like - find out how effective his techniques are. In the meantime, maybe they should not say anything unless they have something positive to say. Sound good? Recognise those words? They're yours. I nearly choked on my cup of tea! If only you afforded Master Huang and his students this courtesy. So I guess my question is, have you completely changed your point of view since November 2006 or does this "rule" not apply to you?
Hi unfetteredmind. Firstly, I don't generally post clips at all. I certainly wouldn't post anything of mine or of people I like or respect, because I know they would be criticised and not necessarily in a well-informed way. I am indeed jaded with the whole "clipology" culture and don't normally criticise anything or like it when others do. But the Huang clip DOES employ a bit of hopping up and down and over-reaction as did the Mizner clip posted earlier. The clip I posted shows it a lot more overtly. If people just post their own clips of form or applications, I don't usually comment - at least not negatively. In all the time I've been posting here I have almost always given positive feedback or no feedback at all for those kinds of clips. I once said why I didn't like a certain kind of Ji application when middleway posted a clip and regretted it because it turned into a bit of a row. Another time, cloudhandz posted a clip by a very good Wudang fighter asking if anyone saw anything wrong with it and most of my comment was positive I just threw in a comment that I'd been taught not to lean, as we'd been asked to say if we thought anything was wrong with the clip. Now comes the but. If people are going to post clips showing students being compliant to make their teacher look good, then they will attract some criticism and not just from me. When I spoke out about the Erle Montaigue criticism it was because people were mostly just having a go at his appearance and not on the content of the clip and I thought that was puerile. I also said later on that thread that some other critical comments about the content might have been fair enough. So have I completely changed my point of view? No. I think the lines still stand, on the whole.
178 post in this thread including this one and there is no real resolution! Well hum! I will go back and read again.
So the phrases "no investigation, no right to speak" and "maybe they should go and train with him" were in reference to them not investigating his appearance before speaking?! I guess I'm prepared to accept that you don't think you were being insulting when you said: "Sorry unfettered mind, but this is just the same old same old BS to me. The "internal" mind-controlled qi robots always say things like "ah but maybe you just don't understand." Such comments prove nothing at all except that they have been brainwashed or are willfully gullible. Until the qi-pushers stop just doing tricks with their brainwashed qi-junkie disciples and start winning competitions with martial artists from all cultures and all martial disciplines, the rest of us can all quite legitimately just stand back and laugh." And: "I could say you only believe in this kind of stuff because you like to believe in irrational things - you have an identity investment in it - it is just ego" But I did think this was fairly insulting. I will leave others to make up their own minds. However, I wonder, would you be prepared to take your own andvice and go and train with Wee Kee-Jin (one of the students "hopping around" in the clip you have such a problem with) when he teaches in Sheffield in October. You could discuss his experiences with Master Huang, address any concerns you have as to the authenticity of what occured and most importantly ask him to demonstrate his Fajin on you (being as non-compliant as you like). This would qualify you to pass judgment on this clip. Details can be found at http://www.taijiquan.co.nz/workshops.htm Sound good?
Hi unfetteredmind. As I am not remotely curious about your pals or whether they throw themselves around or not, I shall not be going to visit them in October. As I've said, people are free to look me up if they want, but I'm not travelling to meet anyone. Now I had hoped after Skc_Wado's last comment that this thread would remain civilised, so whether this sounds good to you or not, maybe it is time to drop it. There's no sense in snarling and gnashing your teeth now the secret is out. As far as I am concerned this thread ended at post 174.
