"Temple" style: Tai Chi history question

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Silly, May 30, 2007.

  1. Sam

    Sam Absent-ish member

    Some may notice this thread is now considerably smaller than it was 30 seconds ago.

    First of all STOP with the personal attacks, the people in question will be hearing from me.

    Secondly if anyone has suspicions of a duplicate account take them to a moderator.

    Any more of the recent behaviour and this thread will be locked.
     
  2. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    I agree that training with one of Master Huang's students is the best way to determine for yourselves if there is anything worth learning from his approach. Wee Kee-Jin teaches periodically in the UK. Those with a genuine spirit of inquiry may wish to attend. Details can be found on his website at http://www.taijiquan.co.nz/workshops.htm
    Please note that I am not one of his students but I have trained with him in the past and found him to be very accomplished.
     
  3. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    What's interesting is that personal attacks between us posters are moderated. But personal attacks against Masters are allowed. If someone calls a master which I respect a fake, that is allowed.
     
  4. Sam

    Sam Absent-ish member

    If you have a moderation dispute please contact a Global Mod this is not the place to discuss it.
     
  5. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    In response to the comments here, any moderation disputes should be directed to me, another global moderator, or an admin.

    As for the question raised, we will only moderate personal attacks on other members. Just because you respect a master, does not mean anyone else has to.

    Do NOT continue with personal attack on other MAP members or I will remove your posting rights.
     
  6. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    I think, as has already been said, he is demonstrating against compliant partners, however his skill seems quite good.

    The only problem I have with Qi is when the term is misused to represent charlatans and frauds.
    Qi is simply energy in the body. Nothing magical, nothing miraculous.
     
  7. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    I have in fact seen a vhs tape of that demo, which was not grainy, and you can see that he doesn't allow his students to ever be in balance. I have been push when I had no balance and I went flying across the room, but when I was balanced or rooted I only went a foot or two.

    My reason for sating that body mechanics is what is in use is to get away from the 'qi/internal alchemy is the answer' type of statement that goes nowhere. It does cover a lot, but then it's supposed to. Too often people mangle science to try to give their argument credence. As an engineer I find this crazy and plain wrong as the people mis-using science don't know what they're on about. Please note that this is a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular.
     
  8. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Just so I'm clear;
    jnanasakti, could you explain your view and background in Taijiquan? I've read your posts, and I'm having a hard time seeing where you're coming from. The only thing I can gleen from this thread is that you don't seem to like jkzorya. I can't really tell why though?? :confused:
     
  9. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    who knows how I came across this forum. i saw the post on temple style tai chi and given I have direct knowledge and practice of what Master Liao teaches I decided to comment swiftly on the efficacy of what he understands about Tai Chi. I have been studying Temple Style for 4+ years at a rate of 2-3 hours a day. So as I was meet with opposition from some individuals, I continued to battle on as to the efficacy of master liao's understanding. Finally when I come to understand that people just can't see that the metaphysical is a reality, I said something like "You got, I was trying to pull one over on you" and left the forum. If one never meets a real master, popular culture will have brain washed them to believe the metaphysical is not real. Then I surfaced a little while latter and made further fun of jkzorya (without anyone really knowing) in the "First Time" post. I said additional crap like internal is fake and I've practiced for a whole "3 months" and didn't feel anything...just a whole bunch of B.S.; essentially I was mocking people like jkzorya.

    I don't like jkzorya because she is insular, has never meet a real master, and still claims that chi doesn't exist and PROMOTES this insularity to everyone else. What about the efficacy of acupuncture? In clinical studies it has been validated time and time again. Western medicine still hasn't deemed how it works, but yet they know it works. Chinese medicine contends there are chi channels all over the body and it work by this, however, the west simply does not accept this.

    I'm done arguing again. ...It was all a joke. Internal doesn't exist. No such thing as chi and Chinese medicine is fake. all chinese and hindu terminology associated with energy, qi, chi, prana, chakras, lower tan tian, middle tan tian, upper tan tian, nadis etc...all these terms are fake and do not refer to anything real...hatha yoga is only about making the body stretch etc. etc.


    the problem which the discussion of chi, is that many people believe that metaphysical things don't exist.
     
  10. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    There seems to be a real anti-qi theme running through many of the posts here. I can understand that the term can be a problem as so many people use it as an excuse for a lack of understanding but really I would venture that it is some/many people's use of the word that is the problem. For me Qi just means energy so if I punch someone I can say I used my qi or that the potential energy that was stored in my muscles became kinetic energy of my fist. It seems crazy to object constantly to the use of the term energy when talking about human movement. I think that those who object to the term are really only objecting to what they think others mean without taking the time to find out what is actually meant. We rarely talk of qi in my system not because we don't "believe" in it but because it is not helpful in clarifying complex processes. Simply replacing it with another term that is open to vastly different interpretations like "body mechanics" does little to help. For example if I throw a partner in push hands and they say to me "how did you do that" and I say "body-mechanics" how is that any more use to them than saying "energy"? The concept of qi in taiji is no more esoteric than the word energy in physics. These terms are not descriptions of reality, they are models of it, simply tools to help us learn and understand. If one model works better for you fine but what we should really be looking for is clarity of understanding.
     
  11. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Ok, very interesting.
    You say you do not like JKZ for forcing her ideas onto others. Yet your posts are doing the same thing. Also, you admit that you frequently make misleading posts in order to stir up conflict, especially with JKZ.

    Just accept that other people have different opinions to you. Their opinions do not affect your training unless you let them (which, it seems you are...)
     
  12. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Excellent post :)
     
  13. Taoquan

    Taoquan Valued Member

    This is my point as well Vamp,
    A students exp. should grow so it is more difficult for a teacher to execute these kind of techniques. I imagine had you met with said master w/o any MA b/g you would have been thrown several feet many times and thought it miraculous. I have never met any internal master say that his way was superior and all arts should bow down before him and this technique works on everyone. More likely than not they say it would take a very good MA to take on that guy/girl b/c they also are very good MA. Hence some of these techniques (uprooting etc.) may not work on an exp. MA, nothing mystical. Simply a difference in years of training. But what makes a great master is someone that can still distract or find ways to be able to execute said techniqes on exp. individuals.

    Jnana,
    I can appreciate where you are coming from and wanting to defend your Teachers as well as your training. We all do this, however, you came about rather aggresively and now as you have admitted you also put dishonest posts etc. lending very little credibility to your claims. You speak about someone speaking ill of your Master, yet as I have pointed out before you are doing worse by not representing your teachers very well. I seriously doubt that Liao would like to hear about you going on forums and trying to "push someone else's buttons" to get a rise out of them and being overly rude and aggressive. This also is not within the Tai Chi principles that are practiced and as most of my teachers mention to me: "Tai Chi chuan should be embodied in everything you do."

    With some of your posts some ideas were not so bad, maybe elaborate more and don't worry so much about "converting" others into these concepts. Just a suggestion. :D
     
  14. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    Its not a matter of forcing my opinion. I'm stating what is true. There is physical and then there is metaphysical. JKZ is stuck on the physical aspect of life. I'm not forcing my ideas, I'm simply speaking about what is real. Just someone hasn't experienced love, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it just means they haven't experienced it. Its not a question about forcing ideas, this is a debate on the authenticity of tai chi. Look at JKZ's website, nowhere in the martial arts world have I seen tai chi taught as "%100Qi-Free", nowhere. If they don't teach qi with their tai chi, then they teach qigong separately. Is it possible that JKZ is the only one in the world who is correct, against any bonafide masters, or does she simply have a small conscious and life experience? Is QiGong a completely frivolous science? <<removed>>, this can't be explained, it must be felt.

    And this whole thread did affect my training...it took my focus away from my practice, because one practices tai chi, he or she has to pay complete attention to the FLOW of his or her form. Hence my practice was off today. I retreat again. No more. I hope that one day JKZ meets a real master. Then she can focus her attention in a different manner and achieve high results.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2007
  15. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member


    ...for Christ sakes the name Tai Chi and CHI in it!
     
  16. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    OK - if it was really as simple as you say, we'd have no problem, but compare your attitude to that of jnanasakti for example, who insists that it is all to do with metaphysics and the dantian. If I say that something is accomplished with body mechanics, the "internal arts" police leap in and yell "bwahahaha! how little you understand internal arts! Unlike me, you have never trained with a genuine Master, you puny little mortal!" so you see - they reject the idea that body mechanics can be a valid explanation and regularly demean anyone who thinks the art is down to good body mechanics (however subtle).
     
  17. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    You do know that they are different characters in chinese don't you? In Wade Giles the pinyin "qi" should be "ch'i" which is quite distinct from the Wade Giles "chi" of T'ai Chi Ch'uan which is pronounced closer to "ji."

    Pinyin is less confusing because you can talk about Taijiquan and qi.
     
  18. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member


    OHH Let me make CLEAR that I am NOT a STUDENT of Master Liao's. I am a student of one of his students. It's been 20 some years since my Sifu has practice with Master Liao. My Sifu has been practicing for 36

    And in any case, why can't I speak as I want?? Lots of "tai chi" practitioners on this forum dismiss chi in a derogatory manner. Why can't I speak with passion?! And what is it about life and personality?! Does everyone have to file into a line, is that how other people were taught martial arts. It's not how I was taught, I was taught to be me and allow my own personality come through. And so I speak with passion and with censure, because that's me and it has little reflect on my tai chi practice.
     
  19. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    irrelevant
     
  20. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member


    its the truth jkz, you haven't trained with a real master.

    for the tai chi that you practice, your RIGHT, IT IS ALL BODY MECHANICS. but if you practice mediative tai chi, which you don't believe exists, then you develop the internal energy, you develop the tan tian, first the lower, then the middle, then the upper. very rare for people to even develop the middle. dont believe me, that's fine, but if you can understand that acupuncture works...you can deduce much more...
     

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