Hi Inthespirit, thanks for your welcome. I don't know the people in the clip but it does look to me like good internal taiji should. I have also read some posts on another site by one of Adam Mizner's students and what he said made a lot of sense to me. I have experienced the level of skill apparently demonstrated in the video and part of it's nature is that it leaves you very confused about what happened (at first). So I am not at all surprised that people view these techniques with suspicion. I would urge them however not to leave it at that but to find someone who can do this and feel it for themselves. I am absolutely confident that they will not continue to believe that it is mental conditioning!
Sounds logical to me, best to keep an open mind until one has a feel for themselves. Enjoy your time here.
Sorry unfettered mind, but this is just the same old same old BS to me. The "internal" mind-controlled qi robots always say things like "ah but maybe you just don't understand." Such comments prove nothing at all except that they have been brainwashed or are willfully gullible. Until the qi-pushers stop just doing tricks with their brainwashed qi-junkie disciples and start winning competitions with martial artists from all cultures and all martial disciplines, the rest of us can all quite legitimately just stand back and laugh. There is no reason the students should move the way they do - picking up both feet at once and hopping around all over the place - these demos rely on students being conditioned or even instructed to move in a certain way that makes the teacher look like he can do wierd stuff. They'll be told to lock their arms because it is "more realistic" and information will be witheld from them or they'll be instructed not to step in such a way by use of false rationales. The students for their part won't want to be left out, so they'll be eager to learn how to move in such ways, joining in the fantasy and dreaming of the day when they can be the one doing the amazing tricks. How do I know? Because I'm a teacher and have rubbed shoulders and hung out with other teachers and I know what they get up to. Let's just say I have insider knowledge - I know about the demos where students were told to move in a certain way to make the teachers look good and were only told subsequently what had happened and why it was "necessary." I'm just one of the very few people who instead of making excuses for them, or saying "well - we all have to make a living" says "but that is just deception and that is morally wrong." That is why I have set up my own Taiji organisation where deception and trickery are not tolerated. I could say you only believe in this kind of stuff because you like to believe in irrational things - you have an identity investment in it - it is just ego (sorry but IMO your persona "unfettered mind" gives it away). And for all we know, you could be someone from the organisation who made the video clip. Edit - we don't even know whether or not you and jnanasakti are the same person or people who know each other. I'm not accusing you of it, but I don't know, do I?
You still don't get it. You're not a teacher and you have been taught by individuals who are not masters. Hence you have a superficial understanding of Tai Chi. You need to accept that. You think grandmaster videos are just people faking or that you are authentic? You live in a small world, please don't subject all other individuals to your insularity. You are a superficial practitioner. Accept it.
I think you'll find that they are pushing and shoving because they are demonstrating "pushing hands". The clue is in the name. I will get back to your original reply but I must admit to feeling a bit demoralised after deleting my reply. Master Huang's style is what I practise so I feel I ought to respond to this first. He did in fact fight for real many times, fighting for the Chinese against the Japanese in the jungle. I suspect he has considerably more real combat experience than most on this board. What exactly do you expect him to do in this demo, break some bones??!!
JK, I have studied with some of the same students under some of the same masters as you have. I have to point out that this comment is unrealisic and as you know push hands that was shown in the video is entirely different from combat. Chen Xiaowang, Cheng Man ching, William C.C. Chen all these masters would do the same thing if someone struck towards their eyes, block it and retaliate. Comparing actual combat to push hands is not a far comparison as far as I have been taught push hands is a "training method" not for use in actual combat. I can imagine that is someone struck at Chen Xiaowang's face he would not go into push hands, but block the strike then Fajing the opponent. Thus combining true martial technique and push hands. Some people's ideas of push hands are quite off and I find it similar to "Dim mak strikes" (please this is only an example not a debate on these strikes) But when people think of nerve strikes they assume they are being performed full speed in combat. While some can be (b/c of the large area of some nerves and arteries) the rest are best used in CQC situations where you have the opponent in a lock or hold greatly exposing the nerves through various locks. If the opponent cannot move this makes the strike easier to perform. This to me is the similar idea with push hands. As a Tai Chi practitioner when someone strikes at me in full combat I don't Push hands with them. I will apply the martial techniques that I learned. However, once they are off balance or under my control it makes it much easier to perform "Push hand like" techniques. People assume push hands is Tai Chi fighting and this is incorrect, it would be like us watching any other MA train in the same move where students move perfectly to perform said technique perfectly. We as MA know this is not true. Jana, Un, I have already explained I am a believer of Qi and the "internal" aspects of MA. However, when you post and attack others and their own ideas this shows great disrespect and makes those that practice Qi look rather childish. Qigong/Internal MA I have studied with do not consider these techinques such a huge deal. They consider it a by-product of training, some of this training has MA applications, where as others have health/spiritual applications. Being over zealous and rude to other practitioners of an art does not get the point across.
No - just demonstrate reality instead of set ups. These tricks would not look the same on a stranger.
Right, I'll try this again - the abbreviated version. Until the qi-pushers stop just doing tricks with their brainwashed qi-junkie disciples and start winning competitions with martial artists from all cultures and all martial disciplines, the rest of us can all quite legitimately just stand back and laugh. What MMA competitions have you won? They'll be told to lock their arms because it is "more realistic" and information will be witheld from them or they'll be instructed not to step in such a way by use of false rationales. I get thrown like this regularly and have never been asked to act in a particular way. I have extensive experience in Tae Kwon Do and Wing Chun and am used to hard sparring. All this was useless when I met my current Taiji teacher. How do I know? Because I'm a teacher and have rubbed shoulders and hung out with other teachers and I know what they get up to Me too. I'm just one of the very few people who instead of making excuses for them, or saying "well - we all have to make a living" says "but that is just deception and that is morally wrong." Might this be your "identity investment"? I could say you only believe in this kind of stuff because you like to believe in irrational things - you have an identity investment in it - it is just ego (sorry but IMO your persona "unfettered mind" gives it away). I think you just did! The Unfettered Mind is the title of a book I like not a claim to a personal state! My intention in using that name was to enable those who have read the book to know a little about my interests and direction. And for all we know, you could be someone from the organisation who made the video clip I am not but you are right in pointing out that you can't know. Just like none of us can know anything about anyone else who posts here, including you. Edit - we don't even know whether or not you and jnanasakti are the same person or people who know each other. I'm not accusing you of it, but I don't know, do I? Well I think you have gone on to accuse me of this. Think what you wish.
No I don't know him or her and I would like to distance myself somewhat. The comment to Carys earlier in the thread about being a good companion was particularly objectionable. However, I have trained with a senior student of Master Huang's and so do have personal experience of the kind of thing demonstrated. Obviously you can say I'm deluding myself but really, which of us is best positioned to comment on what is happening here. You with no experience of this kind of training or me with 8 years? I take your point from earlier that you know of people who fake this kind of thing but that doesn't mean that everyone is a fake. I have seen Sly Stallone fake a boxing match in Rocky but that doesn't mean that Mike Tyson was a fraud.
This is evading the issue. I don't make unrealistic claims, or belittle other martial styles. The "internal" artists make a big deal out of their styles being the best, but don't demonstrate it in competitions, or on anyone other than their own students. I am merely pointing out that demos on students are not really any kind of evidence. I know this - I demonstrate on Julie - for which I have been criticised as she is not big or formidable looking. But she's no stooge - she just takes it on the jaw and tries her best to stand firm. I have nothing to prove. People can come and train with me if they wish, watch my DVDs if they wish, try things out for themselves if they wish - or not. And just for the record, I know from personal experience that I am very capable of dealing with real street attacks. I do not need to prove anything else to myself or anyone else. It would be irresponsible of me to enter competitions having survived lymphatic cancer and having several health conditions (lymphoedema in both legs, a severely arthritic hip with osteoporosis, as well as asthma) - it wouldn't be safe. One guy I sparred with deliberately targeted my bad hip with stomping kicks to try to get the better of me. He still didn't win, but that's not the point. As I've said before though, if anyone gets gobby and starts doubting my integrity, they can come and spar with me if they wish.
OK, when I first saw a video of Huang Xingxian pushing students I thought it laughable, the problem being that the students seem to be too cooperative. This I think is due to culture and not wanting to show up the teacher in a public demo. On the other hand, he does deal with his students, their reactions are not helped by the fact that they are already imbalanced when he pushes them, so they seem worse that they should be. Demonstrations for the public aside, I would not base the abilities of Huang Xingxian on this clip. He came from a martial background in White Crane and moved to taiji after meeting Zheng ManQing. I believe that he was martially effective, but for whatever reason he gave public demonstrations which would always use cooperative students. He is now dead, so we can never really know how good/bad he really was. These clips are not the answer to this question. Look at Yek Sing Ong or Wee Kee Jin, they were his top students. If they can't cut it then you can be certain of his lack of ability, but if they hand your ass to you on a plate, then maybe the dead deserve a bit more respect. This post is to defend Huang Xingxian and in no way should be read as a I believe in qi-pushing type thing. It was a poor demo that doesn't do him justice I feel.
In 1970, at the age of 60, Master Huang defeated a renowned chinese wrestler 21 throws to nil. This was a televised contest and as usual because of the way his art looked people simply said this was a faked contest. However in a country where honour and reputation is everything it is quite a stretch to say that a professional wrestling champion would allow himself to be humiliated on tv in this way by an old man. In 1978 Peter Ralston, an internal stylist who teaches that mind-intention is the essence of Taiji won the World Championship full-contact martial arts tournament in China. Just 2 examples.
The reason his students seem too cooperative is that he is breaking their root and controlling them from the first touch. At this point the body feels as if it is falling and cannot find the ground. This causes the muscles to contract hard and by manipulating the partner at this point and adding power they do literally throw themselves. This is why they appear to jump away. They can also be thrown using just Master Huang's own power which is "relaxed" or "soft power" because it is generated by allowing the muscles of his body to stretch under the force applied by his partner and then unstretch at the moment his partner is weakest - like a catapult or the "drawn bow of the classics". An unstretching muscle has been shown in laboratory tests to be able to exert 10 times the force of the same muscle contracting, but over a much shorter distance, hence the smallness of Master Huang's movements. This for me is the essence of the internal approach - it involves stretching and unstretching muscles (only a relaxed muscle can stretch hence the stress on relaxation in Taiji. The external approach uses contracting muscles to generate power. So you see, it is not so mysterious and quite scientifically demonstrable. The deeper aspects of the art arise because of the mind state required to overcome the contracting reflex of the muscles when force is applied. Long years of training in this way deepen the mind in the same way that deep meditation does.
I don't make unrealistic claims or belittle other styles either. Nor do I doubt your fighting ability, it's just that for me Taiji can be so much more than just a fighting art. It is quite possible to become an accomplished fighter using an external system, in fact it is probably easier, but that does not make it Taiji. I don't doubt your integrity either, I just doubt your knowledge of the internal aspects of Taiji. I take it that Julie is one of your students? In which case it hardly seems fair to critisise other teachers for demonstrating on their students. If their demonstrations are invalidated by this fact then it follows that yours are also. I appreciate that you have good reasons for not entering competitions but perhaps other people have different, equally valid reasons for not entering. Maybe, they have nothing to prove either?
The students don't even have a root to start, they are in such a rush to engage that they don't even try to start in a rooted position. This is just body mechanics and intelligent use of force. Perfectly reasonable but then you go on.. This I don't like, if you're new here you'll not know that you can't go quoting 'science' without references, mere hearsay won't cut it. Comes across very poorly. The smallness of Huangs movements are due to his ability to use body mechanics really well. It's just body mechanics and the only thing to learn is to stay loose and fluid, not stiff. This doesn't really demand that you believe in qi or internal mumbo jumbo. Keep training and the results will happen.
Thank you, This is often something my master preaches when asked how can someone so small (5'8" 140 lbs) throw someone so big. He always says "If I have their center and root they are not that big. Then I am not throwing 200+ lbs, I am throwing a few ounces." I too have felt this with my master, once he touches you he immediately has control of your center and your root. This is a great training method as it "forces" you to learn to maintain your root or regain your root immediately after someone has taken it from you. It is nothing really mystical, it was explained to me with a meditation. Basically as you start out, it is easiest to visualize having a large center (a circle if you will) that you can move around in (it more than likely starts outside the body). As you progress though, this center gradually moves into the body, and becomes smaller and smaller. As it becomes smaller it becomes more dynamic able to move much faster, so it is harder for opponents to take. The goal of training is to make it smaller and faster. Though against a trained master they can quickly and easily find your center (with a touch) making it easy for them to throw/uproot/take control of the body. We as Tai Chi practitioners (I hope) for the most part have exp. this when we push hands with "new" students. Now if a practitioner continues to practice against students with a "smaller/faster/more dynamic" center then our skill increases as well b/c it requires us to find their center of gravity quicker and strike before they can move. Hence "If my opponent does not move, I do not. If he moves I move first." To me this also means reacting to the center before it is moved away, not missing an opportunity to strike. This is also increased with (if I remember the chinese right) "ting Jing" "listening energy".
Okay I will concede that this needs to be referenced and as I have previously stated I will try to get a link for you, however the truth or otherwise of this statement is not changed by the lack of the name of the study. But if you want to pull me up on lack of scientific protocol you might want to reconsider your completely subjective, unsupported assertion that "The smallness of Huangs movements are due to his ability to use body mechanics really well". You know that from what, a grainy youtube video? Unless of course you include in the definition of that wonderfully wooly, catch-all phrase "body-mechanics" the fact that muscles stretch and unstretch while performing fajing.
