techniques that don't work

I have been training with my brother for around four months now (first grading on friday YAY). There is one lock that doesn't work on me at all - wristlock ( put your hand in front of you with the palm facing you and figers up. Then push on your hand, go with the joint so that your knuckles are facing you.)
On every one else at the dojo it hurts them quite a bit but I feel nothing, apparantly my elbows are strong too and require a lot of pressure to cause pain to (dunno how that happened - I hyper extended them both playing cricket one day a few years ago, very painful) .

Was just wondering if anyone else has anything like this or a technique that doesn't always go as expected on everyone.

Or if you have any idea as to why my wrists can't be hurt in this manner.

 

Absolutely! Everyone has something that doesn't work very well ... and other things that work better that on other people. It's possible that your instructor isn't taking the optimal line (at least for you). There may be a line that'll work better on you.

This is why it's so important to not rely on any one thing. And to learn to flow. So that if you try something on someone and it doesn't work, you immediately and without hesitation flow to something else.

There are *no* guarantees in a fight.

Mike

 

I find that I can slide out of most armlocks without too much trouble, I've got very flexible shoulders. Certain techniques just don't work on certain people.

 

Ah - the search for the ultimate technique. The one that works for anyone on anyone all the time.

Sorry - it doesn't exist.

There are techniques that work better than others in certain situation for certain people or types of people.

What many people fail to realise is that the actual technique is often not to blame when it fails. People are quick to learn "new" techniques but many fail to develop the attributes necessary to make them work.

An example. A basic boxing jab works. It's a valuable tool and it works well. However, if you don't put in the necessary flight time in developing the attributes needed to land that jab - it will fail. You need...

1. An understanding of the technical components of the jab.
2. Sufficient flight time to groove in the physical movement of the jab.
3. An undestanding of the range & environment that it works in.
4. The footwork to get you in range to land it.
5. The footwork to enable you to either follow up, evade a counter or whatever else your strategy is based on at that time.
6. The timing required to land it. Largely developed by a logical progression from...
...shadowboxing to
...static pad work to
...mobile padwork to
...isolation sparring to
... full non-compliant sparring
7. The maintenance of that skill, once aquired, so that it's there on tap when you need it.

Many martial artists never move beyond stage 2

 

Out of curiousity, what's isolation sparring? We do all of the others but I'm not sure about that one.

 

Hi Jimmy

Isolation sparring is where you limit the tools available to you in order to work specific things - for example here's a progression for isolating & developing the jab...

...Spar using just the jab, both people
...Just the jab vs all hands
... All hands vs All hands (i.e. Boxing) but focussing on using the jab effectively
... All hands vs all standing tools (brings out better entering skills due to the introduction of kicking range)
... All hands vs grappling (This will work your ability to jab & move - especially laterally)
... All tools vs all tools. The final stage, integrating the jab into your whole game from standing to close clinch to groundfighting. Yes - you can jab on the ground too but "footwork" becomes "hip control".

 

We call that restricted sparring, but same diff. Can I just point out that whilst some techniques may not hurt, most joint locks don't hurt me now because I've become conditioned (or brutalised) to them, when taken to their ultimate point they break bones, I don't know may people who can effectively fight after that!

Thanx

 

That seems to be a good idea to organise the practise of a new technique.

I am grateful for all you people that replied - they were all helpful.

I was aware that there is no ultimate technique - otherwise we would just practise this technique over and over again.

Could anyone shed any light onto the why of the matter with a joint lock that doesn't work? I'm just curious.

 

Well in my case I've just become conditioned to the pain, the nerves have become desensitived. No two bodies are identical so nerves and boney protrusions can be randomly alighned that they minimise the effect of a technique (in this case Yodas correct in trying to find a 'different line', which is different to the majority).

Thanx

 

Ok, appearently theres two pressure points sort of under and to the side your jaw, in your upper neck. I'm sorry its really hard to describe where it is and I dont know any medical terms. Anyways, one of my friends is really into pressure points and all that stuff, he tried that point on me and I didnt feel a thing, he looked at me with disbelief, then asked "Are you faking it?''. I seriously didnt feel a thing. Also my left knee is out of place, its sort of funny actually, my left leg is crooked. With pants on, it looks normal so in sparring matches when an opponent tries to give me a quick shot to the knee to off balance me they usually end up hitting my thigh or shin.

 

Bizzare! The point under the jaw line are one of the few I'd of said were 100%.

Your a mutant !!!

 

Lol, I was born near Chernobyl, right when the disaster happened too. I wouldnt be surprized if you're right Freeform, hehehe.

 

Yep, we do isolation sparring then.

Most likely they weren't hitting the right point, or perhaps you are just a mutant.

 

Pitiful humans, bow down to your genetical superiours!!!

:woo:

 

Here's some info I got from Roy Harris (BJJ Black Belt) on joint locks - seems kinda related to this thread so here goes....
========================

When it comes to submissions, there are several different types: chokes and strangulations, joint lock and pressure/compression points. My favorite is joint locks. I've spent several years studying them. Here's my take on joint locks: There are seven reasons why joint locks appear to be ineffective at times:

1. Bad mechanics

2. Abnormal range of motion

3. High tolerance to pain

4. Under the influence of a drug

5. Mentally deranged

6. Previous injury or surgery

7. Any combination of the above



Poor mechanics is the number 1 reason why joint locks seem ineffective at times. It is the number one problem I see at grappling tournaments.

Learning the mechanics of a joint lock should be the foundation of submission grappling. If a person doesn't know the correct mechanics of a specific joint lock, he/she must make up for this lack of knowledge by introducing speed, strength and power into the equation. This is why so many people struggle with grappling. If they knew the mechanics of the lock they were trying to employ, they would know where to precisely place their strength. They would know how to use the leverage that mechanics would give them. Instead, they struggle with poor mechanics and their opponent escapes the lock.

Good mechanics will give a person the ability to apply most of the body weight and all of their upper body strength onto one joint. If you weigh 150lbs., you should be able to apply at least 150lbs. of pressure onto one joint. Now with that kind of weight and pressure, how many people do you know that can support 150lbs. on one joint? Now if you change the angle of pressure on the joint, how many people do you think can do that?

Joint locks can also seem ineffective because the opponent / assailant has an abnormal range of motion in a specific joint. For example, I know of a few people whose elbows bend backwards, way beyond the normal, straight 180 degrees. I met a woman whose arm bent backwards to almost a 90 degree angle. It was impossible to arm lock her with the normal Juji gatame. I met a guy who could sit on the ground with his legs straight out in front of him, his butt and the back of his knees were touching the ground, and he could touch the soles of his feet on the ground without bending his legs. I¹ve met several people who could bend their wrists backward and touch the palms of their hands to the inside of their forearms.

These people require that you have not only have a working knowledge of good mechanics, but you also need to know how to change the angles on their joints. Otherwise, you will not make them tap on the joint that has the abnormal range of motion.

The number three reason why joint locks can seem ineffective is the opponent / assailant has a high tolerance to pain. I have applied joint locks with correct mechanics to a few people who could withstand a lot of pain. Some simply refused to tap until they heard something pop. So when I'd encounter a new student or seminar attendee wouldn¹t tap to an arm lock or wrist lock, I always resort to the carotid restraint. I knew I wouldn't hurt them because they will go unconscious if they don¹t tap. Many have gone unconscious, but none have ever been hurt. High tolerance to pain is something you will encounter from time to time. So don't be alarmed. Some people are just kinda weird that way! (I am that way with biting. I have an extremely high tolerance to pain when it comes to someone biting my arms or legs. However, put me in a good arm or leg locks and I will tap like an experienced conga player! )

The number four reason why joint locks can seem ineffective is the opponent / assailant is under the influence of a drug. Certain drugs cause the nervous system to ignore the signals they receive from certain receptors. They don¹t feel pain. You crack their arm and they smile at you. You break their knee and they begin to sing the National Anthem. It¹s time to put your new Nike cross trainers into action and get the hell outta Dodge!

The number five reason why joint locks can seem ineffective is the opponent / assailant is mentally deranged. Same thing as those on drugs. Same response. I encountered a few people like this as a police officer and they were extremely difficult to deal with. There are a number of homeless people like this. They have lived on the streets for years and not much bothers them. Be careful.

The number six reason why joint locks can seem ineffective is the opponent / assailant has a previous injury or surgery. This is very common as well. I have known a few people that have had previous surgeries or injuries and had no, or very little feeling on one side of their body. so when you put them into an arm lock for the first time, they just look at you. When their arm cracks so loud that everyone in class hears it, you better get them some immediate medical attention, even if they say, "I'm OK."

The last reason why joint locks can seem ineffective is any combination of the above six reasons.

When applying joint locks, take the above information into consideration. Check your mechanics first. If your mechanics are OK, take a look at the opponent's joint. If it looks like it would normally hurt, you probably have someone on your hands that fit into one of the above descriptions.

As you can probably tell, I am very big proponent of developing proper mechanics. I stress mechanics a lot in my BJJ classes. Why? Because it makes accomplishing your objectives much easier. You won't have to mix speed, power, strength and explosiveness into the matrix as often.

Good training to you,

Roy Harris

 

I'm a challenge for a wrist lock/drop also. Just bending my wrist might take me down but you're not causing pain so you better alter it quickly or I'm going to retaliate.

For a wrist lock/drop to be effective on me you have to bend my wrist and also push it to the outside towards the pinky finger.

Ouch! That works.

 

Yeah and is also dangerous to try while training unless the person putting it on understands why its hurting.

That twist doesn't really hurt me unless my arm is straight. Even then I can't really feel it go on. Any lock that is going crosswise to the joint should be kept to a minimum of pressure. My brother likes doing that to my elbow in one of our standing arm bars. He grabs my hand to increase the torque, twisting the whole lock in the process, putting al the strain on the tendons in my elbow, forearm and wrist. While this is reasonably painful in the lock it will hurt like all buggery for about an hour after.
I think that point earlier about understanding the mechanics of the lock is very important and should be part of what is taught in MA.

 

I agree about understanding the mechanics of a technique. I just didn't know if you were aware that there was a way to alter the technique to make it more effective. My .02

 

Ah yes, but in a proper scrap whoses going for a submission? If you've got good mechanics and the compliance don't work, I'm still gonna crunch your carpals :woo:

Yoda, didn't know you taught BJJ whereabouts are you? Went to a Maurico Gomes seminar last year, it was great!

Thanx

 

Hi Thomas

I don't teach pure BJJ as such- but it's a big part of what we do. Our groundfighting comes from BJJ / Shooto / Wrestling but the foundation is definatelt BJJ.

I'm in the North West - live in Wigan and teach in Haydock / St Helens.

Speaking of Roy Harris' stuff - did you know he's over here next month? We're training with him on July 6th & 7th - WoooHooo

I've trained with Mauricio too - Awesome!!!