Technique Questions

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Freeform, Nov 5, 2002.

  1. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    In Kung Fu it seems to me that you've got lots of cool names for your techniques, however they don't seem (to me) to explain the movement, so I'll start off with one thats been bothering me for a while now.

    Should be a simple question for all you Kung Fu practitioners out there, what is this 'infamous' "Dragon Sweep" that I've heard about, how does it work, how do you do it, would it work in a scrap?

    And why (I'm not sure if this a Kung Fu wide thing) do some of you guys not pivot on the ball of your foot when you execute a 'cross punch' (what I think looks most to me like a cross)?

    When your punching straight on, are your fists always vertical? Is this done for reasons of speed and repeatability?

    I must point out that most Kung Fu I've seen is either Lau Gar, Wing Chun or Mok Gar.

    Thanx

    Colin
     
  2. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I haven’t heard of the dragon sweep, do you know which style its from?

    Theres so many styles as you probably know, that any technique you describe is likely to be covered by at least several.

    The older styles from what I know tend to have the animal names, more as a reference to there inspiration than an explanation to what they do. Wing Chun the style I study, has its moves explained in a more descriptive way, assuming there translated from Chinese that is!

    The punch you describe sounds more wing chun. It’s a centre line punch, with the fist starting in the centre of the body and being thrown straight out. Elbows are kept tucked in, its thought to be harder to block this way. Although it does rely more on speed than power. Its said that the vertical fist and tucked in elbows keeps elbows better protected against being locked out or similar arm lock, and also increased speed and throw multiple punches in quick succession. In boxing terms its closer to a jab.

    I also train in the “harder” styles were you do pivot on the balls of your feet, and use your body more to generate power. Although in kung fu I’ve only practised the one technique that involves a horizontal fist, it does seem to be widely avoided because of the way it raises the elbow. Possibly allowing it to be locked out and some people claim its easier to break it that way.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2002
  3. stump

    stump Supersub

    dragon sweep is a generic term for a spinning sweep where you drop down very low and trip your opponent. You haven't a chance in hell of pulling it off against any form of resisting fighter!!! It's more for show than practicalities. Looks great in demos and movies though.

    I find the punch you're talking about (vertical fist) much more stable when hitting something really hard, but that's personal preferance. The proper lau gar way is with horizontal fist and it;s not as effective imo
     
  4. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I agree with the vertical punch!

    Can you explain the dragon sweep a bit more please? Sounds a bit risky from what you say, I don't like the overly low stances, I can imagine the leg out at a risky angle!
     
  5. stump

    stump Supersub

    OK, imagine a spinning kick along the ground at heel level. In order to get the maximum power in the sweep you drop your bodyweight as low as possible as you spin. As you connect you're at your lowest then you come back up as you go through. you can see it in best of the best during the final fight if you have that movie (if not check it out anyway!) You aklso use your hands for support if necessary.

    It's more of a TKD thing I think, that's where I came accross it

    Does that help? i'm crap at explaining things...........

    you're right though it's not a real world maneuvre
     
  6. stump

    stump Supersub

    By the way as you've probably guessed the counter is to stamp on the outstretched leg!!!!!!!! ouch :)
     
  7. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Its a high risk move, I can imagine it either being very effective or as you say, ouch! if it goes wrong.

    Do you think many people use it as a realistic technique, you'd have to be quite gymnastic to do it well! Rules me out ;)
     
  8. stump

    stump Supersub

    definitely not. it's a demonstration technique. you can see it a mile away and it's not really that powerful, though i like the variation which you just do a low spinning kick to the leg.

    If a dragon sweep will work for you, you didn't need to use it in the first place...if you know what I mean
     
  9. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Every technique has its place.

    Just like weapons. A knife isn't much good at fifty yards, but a rifle won't do you much good in a phone booth.

    Take the dragon sweep. Unless your opponent does something stupid, you probably won't get the chance to drop down and spin around and sweep him. *However* ... if you get knocked to the ground, the spin may help you avoid the kick that's coming toward your head, and the sweep will just be sitting there pretty as you please.

    Different things work in different scenarios and different tools have better success in different environments.

    Mike
     
  10. stump

    stump Supersub

    I agree mike, but there's a hell of a lot of techniques out there and only enough time to master a small number. The one's I want to master are the "one size fits all" ones that I can make to fit a wide variety of situations. A few of those are far better imo to having hundreds that are only for special scenarios. I'd class the dragon sweep as one of the latter. I know practically any technique will work in the right environment but I'd rather have a few old faithfuls at my disposal!!!
     
  11. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Absolutely ... but what works for you in the environments you frequent will often be different than what works for someone else (even in the same environment) :)

    For some, I'm sure the dragon sweep is a highly useful technique.

    Mike
     
  12. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hi Colin,

    Point at a time;

    1/ Interestingly I know what you mean, but it's sometimes an easy way of remembering a tecnique, rather than saying; Block One, Block two in Japanese.

    2/ Specifically Dragon sweep refers to the movement of a Dragons tail, which can uproot opponents by sweeping their feet frum under them. If you've ever seen 'Way of the Dragon', you'll remember the Back-Alley fight behind the restaraunt, where Bruce executes a spinning kick crying "Little Dragon whips his tail"
    As a technique its in the high risk category as Stump has said. There are very specific applications for it, and it requires you to set up the opponent. I would never attempt it in a scrap, as in the street, it could potentially kill my opponent, or get me killed. Having said that, I have taken down some very good kickers with it, and suffered no repercussions albeit in tournaments.

    3/ If it's the Lau Gar punch you are talking about, then the idea is that the stance is the structure which transfers the power. Lifting the heel of the rear foot and twisting the hips and pelvis potentially overextends your balance, and affords your opponent the opportunity to step around the cross. The rear hand punch you may have seen is thrown with the shoulders square to the target, meaning no adjustment is necessary for a follow up with the other hand, or indeed with the legs. You would need further justification of specific Chinese stances to understand this fully I believe.

    4/ The vertical fist strikes employ different muscle groups and dynamics to the horizontal fist techniques, indeed they have different effects. Punches are a good training method, but there are many more effective uses of the hand to be found within the CMA.

    5/ Lau Gar is fairly eclectic, teaching a broad range of different themes without a great deal of concentration on any one area. Wing Chun is a short range system, agressive yet highly practical. Of the family systems you have Mok Gar, Lau Gar, Hung Gar, Li Gar & Chow Gar etc which all concentrate on different things. 'Gar' means family. There are thousands of Kung Fu systems, and people shouldn't really generalise their opinion of Kung Fu by looking at one system, especially when most of the hand arts practiced in the west have some origin there in the first place.

    Hope that helps,

    Regards

    Andy
     
  13. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Hey STUMP

    Sorry bud - I drop people with this one on a fairly regular basis, after getting caught with it myself - and our sparring is as resisting as it gets. They cannot stamp on the outstretched leg as they are standing on one leg at the time. It 's all about............

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    V

    Timing :D
     
  14. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Cheers guys.



    I believe this was the punch I've seen executed, how do you get over the solid stance/mobility problem, or is it a case of Practice Practice Practice.

    Now making a list of things he's going to ask Andy to show him at HWU X-training day
     
  15. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    The stance you will have seen, and I would guess I speak for other systems, is primarily for training purposes.

    In Lau Gar, the basic stance is high, with the front foot turned toes in slightly, and the front knee slightly bent. It is used for training purposes so the practitioner can practice rooting and power development with a point of reference. Believe it or not......we don't advocate walking down the street in Ma Bo (Horse Stance).

    The punch itself is only a training exercise in linking the sections of the body together to generate power without loss of balance etc, but again, not something we would suggest you try to apply in combat necessarily.

    So in answer to your question, there is no solid stance, mobility problem to get over.

    Come see us dance!
     
  16. NielStewart

    NielStewart New Member

    We dont walk down the street in ma bo!........damn no wonder ive been getting funny looks....!
     
  17. iolair

    iolair Mostly Harmless

    This is exactly my philosophy. Although I do still practice exotic techniques, my daily technique practice only consists of 5 punches, 5 kicks, 5 throws and 2 blocks (as well as footwork). Limiting my practice to include the same basic set every day allows me to practice them many times and get fast, fluent technique.
     

Share This Page