Technique Applications

Thanks for the clarification.

Obviously in my normal application of Uke techniques what you're calling the 'non blocking arm' is what I see as the blocking arm, and what you're calling 'the blocking arm' I see as the striking/locking/controlling arm.

 

Like John said, thanks for the clarification.

This whole issue about what the rear arm is doing touches on another point I've wanted to explore.

What are the (mechanical) principles of shuto? How does it generate power?

Lead Arm:

Phase 1 - The lead hand moves to the opposite shoulder/ear - the arm adducts (moves inwards) at the shoulder, flexes at the elbow and forearm supinates (rotates palm-up).

Phase 2 - the forearm sweeps back across the body to the shoulder line (shoulder abduction, elbow extension, forearm pronation (rotation palm down).

In phase 2 the emphasis is very much more on the shoulder abduction rather than elbow extension. But that emphasis can be varied. Some versions put more emphasis on the elbow extension and less on the shoulder abduction. In other words the technique can take a thrusting quality. The pic below shows the end position.



Rear Arm:

Phase 1 - the arm extends forwards (shoulder flexion and elbow extension) and the forearm pronates.

Phase 2 - the arm draws back bringing the hand to the centreline - the forearm pronates but unlike the usual hikite to the hip the elbow is allowed to 'float' out as the elbow flexes. In hikite (withdrawing the fist to the hip) the arm extends at the shoulder. Here we deliberately don't extend the arm but instead use the deltoid to abduct the upper arm. The net result is that you 'hit' yourself on the midline with your hand.

So - as with the lead hand - there are two different motions combined in one:
1. pulling the arm back
2. swinging the forearm inwards to the centreline

And as before the emphasis between the two can be varied, but here its the starting position (at the end of phase 1) which dictates which movement is dominant.

This I think gives rise to the alternative Shotokan/Wado ways of moving the rear hand. The (old) Wado very much emphasises the swinging in of the forearm, the Shotokan way - while still embodying both methods - is a lot closer to pure 'hikite' style retraction.

I think a lot of karate techniques contain this sort of 'multiple dynamic' (for want of a better term) - an element of tsuki (thrust) and barai (sweep) in one movement. Either can be emphasised more than the other, providing many subtle variations, all of which are reinforced by practice of the basic movement.

Back to the power generation, and ignoring what the body and legs are doing for the moment (for simplicity's sake). For me, its about what both hands are doing. The beauty of shuto is that typically BOTH hands are on the opponent, applying force. This can happen simultaneously or with a slightly offset timing. If you put both hands on the opponent in different places then do either phase 1 or phase 2 of shuto (or both), you'll find a number of different ways in which their posture can be broken. Some of these could involve a joint lock/break, some a strike, some a throw/takedown, and some just simply moving the opponent to a disadvantageous position. But all should break the opponent's posture, whatever else they achieve.

Splurge over.

Mike

 

Kanku Dai and Kanku Sho come from Kushanku. Shotokan does not mantain the ancient, or "original" form of the Katas. Let's see an example.

This is traditional Shorin Ryu Kata, Chinte:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcdM7pW14ms"]Chinti - Okinawa Shorin Ryu Karate-do KYUDOKAN - YouTube[/ame]

Now let's see the Shotokan version:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou14EWbogB0"]Chinte - Shotokan Karate - YouTube[/ame]

See what I mean?


For Bunkai, I really love the youtube chanel Oneminutebunkai http://www.youtube.com/user/oneminutebunkai?feature=results_main.

This is one of my favourite applications, since it works for different Katas:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfcjsCPenqI&feature=relmfu"]One Minute Bunkai: Naihanchi Shodan #3 - YouTube[/ame]

 

I think 'better' is a loaded term. For me one kata is only better than another if you can apply effectively a greater proportion of its movements.

 

No no, sorry english is not my first language, so I understand I can lead to confussion. I meant, "the ancient, or BETTER SAID, the original form of the Katas". I didn't mean that that form or this form is better. Sorry to confuse you .

 

Hi Mike

I think a new thread on this would prove interesting.

Edit: new thread created here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112424

 

If you watch this vid (from about 20 seconds) of one of Gichin Funakoshi's students in the 1920s you'll see (what looks to me like) a bit of 'mix and match' of the two ideas. I think the augmented version is the natural way to do it when turning into the shuto;the 'opposition' version suiting stepping forward more. This is how I tend to do it.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUlC4URsnmg&feature=related"]heian shodan funakoshi - YouTube[/ame]

Shotokan's Kanku Dai and Wado's Kushanku both have their root in an Okinawan Kusanku. Of course there are a plethora of both modern & historical Okinawan versions of this kata. So analysing which old version influenced which new version is a bit like analysing how many angels you can get on the head of a pin.

Mike

 

I would say that is so much closer to Wado than Shotokan today - up to the shuto uke's, as we don't do shuto uke in the last 4 moves.

Also, look at the "look before you move" head movement - or lack of it - compared the JWT's version.

 

On the subject of shuto blocks, this reminds me of my favorite takedown, some of you may know it

Its a counter to any sort of punch at face level, you shuto block with your lead hand, and draw up your rear hand ready to chop. You simultaneously chop both sides of the neck then, while holding the base of their head, step in and throw.

 

I have to say I find that video pretty horrific. The Kata performance is so rigid and devoid of any indication of anything other than movement by rote.

I agree with you Mike on the stepping versus augmentation.

 

I know I'm not JWT, but to me it looks indicative of early Shotokan. The super-deep stances were brought in gradually from what I know, as a method of leg strengthening amongst other things. These old videos show it closer to its Okinawan roots, as it were.

 

Well, I was chatting with a JKA 3rd dan once who said that the more advanced you become, the narrower your stance can be (within reason) as it gives the hips much more freedom of movement, and you're unlikely to be in a static position for long. The width on the stance is more for stability as you learn, as I see it. Though of course the width and depth still hangs around in the higher grades.

 

The changing of Shotokan stances over the decades in terms of depth is well known and can be charted in a number of photos and videos. The issue is slightly complicated by the fact that more advanced grades 'should' use more natural stances (depending on the stance and the application) but often don't because they are always on show for the junior grades in the training stances.

One aspect of this that is less well known is the shift in stance depth in western Karate, particularly in Great Britain. When Shotokan Karate became more mainstream over here in the 70s and 80s a large number of western and Japanese instructors did not take into account the difference in limb length between the then average Japanese and the average British person. As a result a large number of people trained in stances that were gross exaggerations. Since then the majority of British Shotokan groups have raised the stances somewhat, but you still see some teaching the much deeper positions. I got a bit of flack in some quarters for adopting a posture closer to the 1957 Karate Do Kyohan than current Shotokan in the Heian Flow System.

With regard to the width of the stances, generally speaking the best practise for front stance is hip width. If you look at the video you will see a great deal of inconsistency in his front stances with a proper width after a turn and a narrower stance after a step forward. This may be due to prior training in a different system that uses such positions, but it could equally be down to lack of attention to detail in basic training. Just because you see someone demonstrating in an old video doesn't mean they are good! Personally I like to see both front and rear foot parallel in front stance as part of good biomechanics and regard a turned out foot as an indication of laziness in developing the correct flexibility for good movement.

 

If the active range in a situation is becoming reduced, and haymakers are involved i like to refer to the teachings of tekki shodan.
The use of extreme close range and taking direct control of an opponent and their shoulders to prevent them from striking effectively, while creating the chance to deal lots of close range damage with the elbows.

 

Hi

Certainly the Shuto Uke (or rather the hikite arm) isn't the only defence mechanism available. Personally I prefer to use either a duck under or a two armed intercept depending on how quickly I spotted it (assuming I haven't already preempted).