Hi JK I agree your opinions are your own so I'm not going to argue, but I have acouple of questions. The postures teach principles not techniques of which there are many, so how would you test them? ok can you explain what you mean by "moving from the waist"? and "utlising whole body power should be constant means"? thanks
Jk, I am not really arguing just pointing out that just b/c there is different ideas/views does not make it not true. There are many instances in this all over in many different views. I agree with you, to focus solely on the idea of Meridians/Qi etc is indeed detrimental to learning TCC as a MA. Though, (this is where we differ due to training) I also realize it is a part of it, my teachers never overly emphasized Qi aspects. All my teachers emphasized that you have to work physically (weigong) just as much as "internally" (neigong). Again Jk, besides a few differences I think we can almost have a general agreement
Nope sorry FQ I never stated that nor implied it as the truth. What I was pointing out is that the idea of where meridians run and points are located IS consistent enough to be tested on by 1'000's of students each year. I never stated it made it true, you implied this yourself.
Not the way we train. Our form practice, whether single techniques / postures or linked sequences are combat literal. Yes, each shape has different possible applications, so you test them out by doing them on other people and this makes up the bulk of our training. When practicing solo, you can either perform specific visualised applications OR work on the general movement qualities while remaining mindful of the numerous possible applications. "Moving from the waist" means that a movement originates in the muscles of the lower torso between the pelvis and the ribcage without any engagement of the legs and hips, pushing and turning the torso as a whole. It is important to maintain the alignment of shoulders being directly over hips when executing applications, otherwise you will strain your back and / or the technique will be less effective and require more effort as you'll be relying on upper body strength alone. The movement shouldn't come from your back. That is what the saying "utilising whole body power should be constant" means. The body should move as an integrated unit from the ground to the hands as an unbroken muscular chain of command, rather like a train with the engine at the back. The whole train appears to move simultaneously, but the movement is pushed from the rear. Taijiquan movement should be pushed along a horizontal plane from the ground.
While tai chi practice can devolve into an airy-fairy, new age exercise, and references to "unseen and undetectable internal forces" can be nothing more than marketing mysticism, it is just as indefensible to deny the existence of an internal electical system. The human nervous system carries electrical impulses throughout the physical body and is the mechanism that enables perception and expression. Every sensory impression, every physical action, every intellectual conclusion, every thought, emotion, memory, and creative impulse is enabled by an electrical system that runs throughout the body. Perhaps it is possible for us to take pro-active steps to smooth that flow, to decrease the resistance along the lines, and even to increase the voltage flowing through the system... perhaps the principles of the neijia are built on this. Or perhaps it's all a several thousand year old scam perpetrated by clever, inscrutable Orientals. If it is a scam, it's a good one, as Western science has been forced to confront and accept realities it can't rationally explain. Acupuncture has been used as anesthesia during surgery, and a host of pathologies have responded to treatment in Western clinical settings. Precisely mapped points, that seem to be universally placed across the spectrum of human anatomy have been used to elicit physiological effects that do not correspond with the rational, scientific Western paradigm. Martial artists, meditators, yogis and mystics have chronicled experiences and capacities that may vary in detail, but are similar in essence. These chronicles have arisen in divergent socio-cultural settings, and been constant through a broad temporal span. I have not gained the ability to fly, walk on water, walk through walls, or defeat any opponent due to my practice of chi gung, tai chi chuan or meditation. I do however feel and function better when I practice than when I don't. It can't be observed, measured, or quantified.... but my energy level is higher, my mental process is clearer, my emotions are smoother and more positive, my perceptions are keener and more subtle, and my reactions are generally kinder and more patient. That may not be enough evidence for anyone else, but it works for me.
That's really just a teleological conclusion - i.e. you start from the premise that qi is real, and then construct an argument from your experiences to finally come to qi. As opposed to, anyone could take the same information and say "Well, what people call qi is probably just electrical impulses and general improvement in health and clarity through training." I think qi can have a power as a psychological placebo, but to say that it's electricity, well, why not just call it electricity then? The reason is, if for one moment you bring it in to the realm of being an ordinary, decetable thing, then people will start to ask why you can't detect it then - IF it's just electricity. Keeping it as "qi" is like making sure you've got movable goalposts - you can always shift it just out of reach.
Two things I would like to bring to the table in this awesomely off topic discussion... First its Yun SHOU... 运手 : Yun Shou that is if you meant cloud hands... if you meant few clouds then Yun Shao 运少 would be right I guess... Secondly my belief is that the oldies from long ago called everything qi cos they simply did not know what it was...
So, what's going on here then? Looks like electricity, but doesn't seem to conform to the rules. [ame]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Aos0hnwiHt8[/ame]
I don't assert that chi is real. I don't address chi at all, nor do I shift anything out of reach. As to reaching a teleological conclusion... I'll leave that debate to semanticists and philosophers, but I don't see where I offer a conclusion in my previous post. (Though I'd admit to offering a suggestion.) I point out that the body has an electrical system. I point out that acupuncture and its theoretical meridian system have been tested and proven effective in Western clinical settings, despite the fact that its efficacy flies in the face of the rational/scientific paradigm. And I see no reason to argue with you when you say. "What people call qi is probably just electrical impulses and general improvement in health and clarity through training." Given that the body does have an electrical system, I offer (again): Perhaps it is possible for us to take pro-active steps to smooth that flow, to decrease the resistance along the lines, and even to increase the voltage flowing through the system... perhaps the principles of the neijia are built on this.
Perosnally, I'd say some nice street magic. Even after years and years of understanding that we can be fooled very easily just by having one piece of the puzzle missing, we still buy it. That missing piece gets us every time. But even if it's something else, like he has a naturally massive level of static, well, who says static is qi? That's more to do with widening out what qi is rather than narrowing it down - a piece of semantic street magic in itself. Personally, I think that guy does street magic, like David Blane, and I rather suspect it's fairly easy to get a massive static charge in your body if you know how.
When people say things in the argument family of "that's all semantics", well, mirror mirror, the real fact is that semantics and philosophy are about making the word games which we confuse ourselves with become clearer, by explaining how we like to fool our monkey brains with mental tongue twisters. Teleological means that you came up with the conclusion first - i.e. that there is a thing called "qi" - and then you used mundae ideas that you already know about, such as the body's electrical aspects, and "led" those in to being qi. Voila - you prove qi exists! In fact, all you really did was play a piece of linguisitc magic - instead of narrowing down what qi was, you did the exact opposite - you widened out the meaning of electricity to include "qi" - but in that sleight of hand - or mind - when you look at it closely, you haven't actually said anything of substance about qi at all - except "it's electricity". If it's just electricity, then what do we need backwards qi concepts for - shouldn't we start using advanced neurological ideas instead? Anyway, I have to tell you, qi isn't electricity - qi, according to theory, can be breathed in, or taken in through food, or by standing near trees, over rivers, etc. You're just trying to culturally appropriate a foreign idea to "tame" it to Western tastes.
By the by, the "principles of nei jia" are nothign to do with that. The day you stop looking for easy routes to skill, like "smoothing your electricity flow" and start on the long, hard, bitter, often boring, repetive path of real training, the sooner you'll get somewhere - is the truth. "Internal" means that you already know your style, you unfold it, not learn it off another. Focussed on magical powers and smoothing out our electrical connections, we fail to notice that the real path was simple, obvious, in front of our eyes all of the time... you already know all the principles of nei jia - ALL of them. You just need to let them through.
Thanks for defining teleological. (Cuz my dictionary's broken.) Thanks for illuminating my semantic/linguistic sleight of hand, and for pointing out my true motive: "You're just trying to culturally appropriate a foreign idea to "tame" it to Western tastes." (Cuz I thought what I was trying to do was build a bridge between seemingly opposed conceptual frameworks.) Thanks too, for explaining what chi is in such a semantically precise manner: "Anyway, I have to tell you, qi isn't electricity - qi, according to theory, can be breathed in, or taken in through food, or by standing near trees, over rivers, etc. " (Cuz I've never had it explained to me that chi is energy, nor have I done the work necessary to have a direct personal experience of it.) And finally, thanks for the sage counsel: "By the by, the "principles of nei jia" are nothign to do with that. The day you stop looking for easy routes to skill, like "smoothing your electricity flow" and start on the long, hard, bitter, often boring, repetive path of real training, the sooner you'll get somewhere - is the truth." (Cuz I've spent the last thirty years screwing around, looking for shortcuts.)
Then my friend ... you are still on the lowest levels or practising the incomplete art! Flying ability is usually achieved in the first trimester of training ... it is fundamental to the art and without it you cannot say with any veracity that you are studying the same art that I am. Walking through walls however, is a different matter as it is an advanced skill that even I have difficulty with. (I got splinters in my backside last week when I got stuck 3/4 of the way through a marine ply wall ... ouch!). But ... I have a similar conclusion to Shadowdh ... qi is an old way of looking at life-force, energy etc. Anyway, I don't use the word personally because I don't know what qi is ... I might have it or might not ... all I know is that I am intimately familiar with how I move . Cheers
Lol, and thank you my brother for helping a misguided fool out. Obviously it's time for me to switch schools.
Oh really? How does one do that exactly? (like the guy in the video i.e. at will and repetitively) I think it's very easy to dismiss this kind of thing just because it looks like street magic, just as it's an easy cop out to dismiss acupuncture as placebo effect, but until Western science can explain exactly how this works, all we have are the ancient explanations, so to simply refute them is really just prejudice. Interestingly, I never believed that generating/issuing qi had any martial applications at all, as I thought it was too subtle a force, but seeing this guy I'm not so sure now. (Still don't hold with the fake jumpers though)
Thirty years is nothing if you've done nothing with it. Most long term trainers that I meet stopped unfolding new insight and level after a couple of years, then spent the rest of their time at the same level, but feeling that the mounting year tally was equivalent to progress. I specialise in helping people begin to unfold their level again, and I'm very good at what I do - IF people can get over themselves to listen to me. Even after thirty years, the thing which is most important to you is personal hurt at what you percieve to be my attitude, rather than the possiblity of new perspectives? Well done.
I don't know. Maybe it's a natural skill he has - but the question to ask yourself is, would you bet your mortgage that David Blane couldn't reproduce the event? Well, it's not actually prejudice in the perjorative sense that you mean it to come from a Western, scientific society and have the perspective on the world given to us by that society - it's just the way we look at the world. It's not some kind of culturalism to not just simply accept the versions of events given by other cultures - is it? It would be culturalsim if we tried to re-define and Westernise culturally specific concepts and them claim that OUR versions are the real versions. Western science has a finite scope, that's true, but it's not true that if we can't explain something that we must therefore ascribe a supernatural origin to it - that simply doesn't make sense or tally with our normal experience. In ancient times, if you didn't know how babies were made you might sayt hatt he fertility god put them there, or if you don't know how the universe is made you might say that therefore it's possible that God made it. Well, possibilities are infinite, but facts aren't. In temrs of qi, I've yet to see anything in martial arts that seemed particularly special or attributable to qi - in fact, the people who most bang on about qi seem to be the poorest at actual martial skill. As for "dismiss" it, well, I look for the tells - the little things that tell me it's street magic - one of which is the magicians way of moving, which he has. Also, when I watched that documnetary, the people surrounding him were amazed at a pulsing "qi" vein in his arm - and I thought, yes, that's really odd. Imagine my surprise, training a few months later when I noticed that I had one too! Exactly the same - it really is just a normal phenomenon, caused by blood pumping, not qi. Some people do have high levels of static electricity. Maybe - just maybe it is possible to enhance that ability and issue electric shocks - there could be a scientific possibility of that.
I am open minded, but not so much that my brain falls out. By all means, ascribe supernatural, or extraordinary origin to things which you can't explain. That isn't open minded by the by - open minded means you're waiting to see the evidence, and in the meantime not jumping to any conclusions; supernatural, extraordinary or otherwise. Mere parlour tricks, I'm afraid, don't impress me, even when I can't tell where the walnut went.
