Yun Shao=cloud hands, but there are many ways of spelling it "when you perform wave hands like clouds (just an example) ask your teacher what meridian it is effecting" I took this to mean only one meridian, apologies if I misunderstood you Can u tell us what meridian or which meridians cloud hands has an effect on
Shoulda said meridians then shouldn'tcha? C'mon then, stop keeping us in suspenders (the neighbours will talk) what's the answer(s)?
okay, I already see this thread is going to go waaaaaay :topic: again. But to answer some questions. Generally from my knowledge if you are doing TC for health (thus affecting the meridians etc.) you are actually working all meridians, otherwise you are not keeping in the theory of TC "one part moves, all parts move" by this very statement alone ALL meridians should be getting worked (just as the same idea that you are working the full body in TCC). If you are looking to work specific meridians you really need to look more at Meditation and Qigong practices. These practices do have specific points where you may isolate certain areas of the body in a session that focuses on just a few meridians. For example if you are truly doing hands like clouds (Yun Shao) you should be twisting from the feet up through the waist and (most forms) may have a slight forearm twist alone with twisting ths spine. Thus you are utilizing nearly all meridians in one way shape or form. However, if you are using the Bear Qigong from 5 animal frolics you are predominantly working the Kidneys, Ren and Du Meridians. This is why it is my personal opinion you should keep the ideas fairly separate. It is okay if you want to practice TC for Health, but don't claim you can fight with it and it is also okay to learn it for a MA, but don't claim it works this or that meridian. Train in what you feel comfortable with and remember others will do the same.
Hi Toaquan you are perfectly correct, But I was referring to a single posture or movement, sorry if I was not clear.
Wave hands like clouds effects mainly the Stomach Meridian and also the spleen Meridian. However as Toaquan pointed out it also works the rest, but to a lesser degree.
Sooooo......... your stomach and spleen actually feel different after cloud hands?? Can't say I've ever noticed my spleen feeling anything, come to think of it.
i finally gave the place a call and as i suspected they do not teach any application in their styles of tai chi. matter of fact the website is kinda false. it says the different styles they teach and says they teach saber and tai chi jian. the teacher i talked to said that stuff is only during seminars they hold life a few times a year. im a application kinda guy so im going to stay away. but the monthly fee's are great!!!!!
Firstly Taoquan incredibly well said Whoflungdat "Wave hands like clouds effects mainly the Stomach Meridian and also the spleen Meridian." That may have been how you've been taught or teach, it definately hasn't been my experience. One could say as you are waving your hands like clouds all 6 meridians of the hands are being affected especially as you 'use' your wrists and most of the source points of these meridians are on the wrist. It has been my experience to be taught to have a 'soft' focus on the Laogong point in the middle of your palm ie the Pericardium meridian. If your going to have relaxed shoulders it's good to relax around the Zhongfu point (Lung1) & Jianjing(Gallbladder21) Stomach definately comes into play especially if u have a relaxed Kua (pelvic region/hips) & your Ma Bo(stance) is good but as do the other meridians of the foot...... Personally I'd be pretty surprised if a majority of teachers taught that yun shao mainly affects only the stomach & spleen Just as an aside we aren't talking about Daoist taiji in general from Wudang (or wherever else) just this one society that calls itself Taoist Tai Chi Trying to get this thread vaguely back on track Bazc if your still reading this(probably not) this thread may have helped you appreciate how rich the art of taiji is(& varied) & its my humble opinion that, that richness isnt taught by this particular society. As Sho'nuff said their fees are very low & they do teach the long form-just a very very modified version. At the bottom of the page there's some links to similar threads and a couple relate to this society which may be worth reading??
Sorry to keep posting off topic but... TQ & MHS: very intersting guys, thanks. The reason I thought maybe HT, if one particular meridian was emphasised, was because if I 'feel' anything when I do this posture, it's along the yang/ulnar aspect of the arm (so probably shoulda said SI really), but must say I don't think about this stuff when I practise and I'm more comfortable with the answers you gave. WFD: Still interested in why you say ST/SP though. What's the reasoning behind that in your system?
BOLD MINE Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, guys, but as someone who has cross-trained a bit between different Taiji styles and other so-called "internal" arts, I'm here to tell you that (as you may have noticed from your above posts,) there is no consistency in this methodology. Precise details, including even the exact whereabouts of "meridians" and so-called "dantians" can vary quite a bit, as well as there being conflicting opinions about which ones are affected / involved. When I explored different "Daoist systems" of health / calisthenics the differences were quite pronounced and martial systems that claimed to stem from given traditions varied widely again, from each other and from root systems. There is a very powerful reason for this. The reason the differences exist is because it is all made up. None of it is real. There are no "dantians", there are no "meridians". It is all just a case of "The Emperor's New Clothes." Anything you experience is largely imaginary, at least, sensations may be normal enough if you really try to feel for sensations in your body, but I think you may really only be feeling muscular movements and sometimes a blood pulse. I suggest that tingling sensations in the limbs are due to paresthesia - the medical term for pins and needles. Aside from this being triggered by medical conditions that cause poor blood circulation, it can also be the result of being unnaturally still, and when movements are performed with very little contraction of muscles in the arm itself, perhaps because a certain curvature is being maintained in the arm or a certain alignment is being maintained, then it is quite natural to feel a sensation that is different from when you are moving naturally, which generally involves all sorts of muscles firing alternately - it is a lot more active. With all these considerations in place, all that remains is to "join the dots" once you have been given the premise of a network of connective pathways, and you will start to create your own "meridians" in your mind. That's why everyone's experiences are different. This is either not discussed, or you are told your experience is wrong so you convince yourself to fall in line with the consensus among the people you train with (peer pressure) or else the matter is glossed over with the idea that we are all built differently, or some combination of all three.
Lieqifan You are right, the Small Intestine is very much affected especially as u transition ie your top hands circles down to become your lower hand Was going to mention that meridian as well as others-I didnt even get onto the Renmai & Dumai-but I thought I might start coming across as some kind of taiji nerd PS just been doing some accupuncture-good to get the Qi flowing a bit more harmoniously
The bold above is a rather obvious argument, how are not all different, the differences in how one person's body structure (tall/short/fat/thin) is amazing. Let alone add in the HUGE differences between sexes, I am sorry, but we are all different. This has always been somewhat of a flawed argument though JK, I mean the same could be said about many different MAs as well. How many variations are there of "Single whip" or "Grasp sparrows tail"? I mean some may look the same, but the subtleties are different. So now who is right or who is wrong? Even if I learned TCC from Chen Wan Ting, I imagine my TCC would still vary from his, Why? Because even as you, yourself, has pointed out we as students etc. take on different training, different ideals etc. Thus changing the art (admittedly sometimes for the better, sometimes not) so indiscrepancies arise naturally. This is not a fault of the philosophy/training/ideas, but rather it is students/teachers changing it to suit their understanding (or sometimes gross lack of understanding). Your argument against this can be applied to many things in general, even our own arts. I respect your views though JK and understand where the discrepancies you speak of can be frustrating. That is b/c you are not paying attention Seriously if you don't even want to think of it in terms of meridians just look at the simple motion of Hands like clouds. I have seen it done with twisting from the waist (only by doing that) or also by incorporating the hips and waist combined. If we isolate these motions look at what we are doing, lets take the waist turning only, if you turn your waist you also naturally twisting the body thus having an impact on the internal organs. The further you twist the larger the impact, if you twist far enough you can feel the twist "on the inside" thus (just like many "modern" exercises) can be working internal organs. I.e. Stomach, spleen, liver if you incorporate hips and make a good twist you can even get the intestines and kidneys in on it. You don't have to believe in meridians to know that any kind of exercise (TCC or otherwise) works the organs and aids in health. It is just up to the individual whether or not to believe in the why (qi/meridians or simple calisthentics)
Quoth: This part is quite simply wrong, otherwise we would not have a National Exam of acupuncture that we test off showing very precise measurements of where points and meridians lay on the body. Quoth terminus. Lol. So, basically, you all agree that they are there, and that then makes it true? it's the spirit of the age, don't you know - "truth" is defined by what you can make people believe.
Well thank you for that I think what you've established is we are taught different activations depending on how the move is performed. Never thought about that.
Hi TQ, Well, I was hoping not to go through another argument of this sort with you, I just expressed my recommendations which people may accept or reject as they see fit. Regarding standardisation of meridians and dantian - well I suppose that may be a good thing, although I remain dubious as to whether the information is uniform across the entire Far East everywhere meridian-based systems are in place, or just finally becoming so in mainland China (they certainly haven't always been.) I'm also aware of a Taiwanese lineage that places the middle dantian at the solar plexus and I've come across lineages that have placed the upper dantian above the head, rather than at the "third eye" point. I've also come across different views as to the size of dantians and even read in Tai Chi Magazine (Wayfarer - US) once someone claiming that there was "really" just one big dantian. But if certain views are becoming prevalent and others are choosing to discard their tradition as "erroneous" then fine. Regarding different postures being different, all you have to do is test them side by side to side what is most martially efficient. Regarding truning from the waist, as far as I'm concerned, it might "massage your organs" or whatever, but it is in breach of Taiji principle "when one part moves, the whole body moves" it is less martially effective and we have no evidence that so-called "organ massaging" is even a good thing. Keeping Taiji Quan (boxing) as a purely martial system enables you to perform the most martially efficient movements at all times without confusing your body by having different, confusingly similar movements that are alleged to have different purposes. Sure - the shape and timing can change subtly for different martial effects, but the fundamental way of moving - utilising whole body power, should be a constant. Moving from the waist is wrong. "Power is rooted in the feet, issued through the legs, directed by the hips and waist and issued through the hands" (or words to that effect) - and that's how TJQ works.
