[Tang Soo Do] What is Tang Soo Do?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Marakusu, Nov 7, 2005.

  1. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    There is some debate as to how much Hwang Kee could have actually gotten out of a book. Some claim he had to have had some instruction of karate. There is also some debate on whether or not Hwang Kee trained at the Chung Do Kwan under Won Kuk Lee, he might have picked Suparinpei up there if he actually did know it, however seeing how its a higher level form, Won Kuk Lee probably didn't know it.

    In all honesty its probably not true. Most TSD stops at Sip Soo, which I'm guessing a book would probably stop there too. If these higher level forms escaped Shotokan, then there's no way they'd make it to TSD.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2006
  2. WotEvaYuKanDo

    WotEvaYuKanDo Valued Member

    I don't find it totally improbable. Suparinpei is perhaps the most significant kata to be lost from early shotokan, it was practised by some and got dropped, so the rumour goes, due to the embarassment of a few very senior people not being able to remember it at some event or other... someone announced it and performed it but several of the judges hadn't got a clue kind of situation... this is rather different to it having completely evaporated from everyones memory (which it subsequently did of course... in a Shotokan incarnation at least.) And, its not all that daunting... although it is very long this is largely because chunks of it repeat over in 4 directions.

    So, not completely impossible, and given it is mentioned at all makes it seem quite likely somehow... smoke and fire... it is difficult to imagine why it would crop up as a talking point in Tang soo do unless there was something to it, given that most people are ignorant of the history of this naha-te kata in Shotokan.

    Another possibility is that someone wrote it down as a hyung when transcribing a list but it was never learnt.

    How would you pronounce it in Korean, '108 steps' ?
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2006
  3. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Not too sure how you would pronounce it. Whereever I read about it referred to it as "Suparinpei" and not by any Korean translation. "108 steps" in Korean is simply "Il Bak Pal Soo Sik" but I've never heard of anything remotely close to that.
  4. Yossarian

    Yossarian Valued Member

  5. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Thanks Yossarian! That site is a great find!
  6. Alexander

    Alexander Possibly insane.

    I'd just like to add that martial arts master does NOT equal saint. Everybody that does Martial Arts is just human and make their choices just like any other human. This means that they can make a choice to be money-grabbing, corrupt frauds. And it happens. There is corruption in a lot of organisations and people get very badly hurt when they place too much faith in someone just because they have the title of 'Grandmaster'. Some would call me cynical but I always like to check on people before I train with them. Then I know what to expect. Usually its 100% fine, but occassionally something bad can come up.

    Firstly, TSD is as effective as you make it.

    Second Karate is very effective when used correctly. Eternal Rage's post about Masutatsu Oyama was a nice little reminder about the founder of Kyokushin Karate. He was called the 'Toughest man in the World' by the New York Times, and many people refferred to him as the 'God Hand'.

    Also Karate's Kata are absolutely vicious in application. The problem is that a lot of this knowlege was never imparted to many Japanese, and therefore the chances of it being imparted to the Koreans were very small indeed. In my opinion most moves in Kata should be thought of as moves that follow the principle of 'one-hit kills'.

    Its only recently being re-incorporated into a lot of Karate Dojo's curriculums.
  7. shaolin_hendrix

    shaolin_hendrix Hooray for Zoidberg!

    Tang Soo Do is awsome because it's Chuck Norris' style, and whenever you ask Chuck Norris what time it is he always says "two seconds 'till." Then when you ask "two seconds 'till what?" he roundhouse kicks you in the face.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2006
  8. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    hehe i love chuck norris jokes.

    Now that you mention it Chuck used Tang Soo Do to win a load of Karate Tourniments didnt he?
  9. shaolin_hendrix

    shaolin_hendrix Hooray for Zoidberg!

    Yep, I think so.
  10. monk-ki

    monk-ki Monkey..Monk-ki...Get it?

    That is not true. In our style, the higher black belt forms are Jin Do, Kong Sang Koon, Roi Hai, Wang Shu and Sei-Shan. There might even be others, but I have not learned them or seen them from my Instructor. Jin Do is reserved for 2nd Degree black belts, Kong Sang Koon and Roi Hai for 3rd, and Wang Shu and Sei Shan are for 4th Degree. True, they are rarely in books, but what is there history?
  11. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    I thought Sip Soo was a 4th degree form. At least according to Kang Uk lee's book as well as simply from what I've seen...
  12. Yossarian

    Yossarian Valued Member

    In my org Sip Soo is taught to Cho Dan Bo's, Naihanchi 2+3 to first dan, Jin Do second dan and Kong Sang Koon and Ro Hai to third. I Suppose it depends on the org, Kang Uk Lees org has more forms than mine, ie Chill Sungs so I can see how they might do Sip Soo at a later level.

    You can find lots of history on these forms if you look up the Japanese/Okinawan versions. I believe Jin Do and Kong Sang Koon were named after Chinese sailors whos styles the forms are based on. The rest im not so sure.
  13. monk-ki

    monk-ki Monkey..Monk-ki...Get it?

    As you can imagine, there are several different histories for the advanced forms, as well. In Grandmaster Jae C. Shin's book, "Traditional Tang Soo Do, Vol. IV, The Advanced Hyung", Kong Sang Koon is said to come from Okinawa, from a trade ship that landed there in 1756 from China. Kong Sang Koon was the name of one of the men on board, who was an excellent master of Chinese Boxing, and stayed in Okinawa for five years, and taught local students, one of who was "Tode" Sakugawa Shungo (1733-1815) who was apparently quite skilled. Then, this form was named after it's creator.

    In Grandmaster Ho Sik Pak's Book, "Complete Tang Soo Do Manual, From 2nd Dan to 6th Dan, Vol.2", Pak writes the same thing almost, only really changing the dates the Chinese master was in Okinawa (1761-1772). Both of these histories purport the form coming through Okinawa, to Japan, then to Korea (GM Shin's book mentions Okinawa, but GM Pak goes on to relate a little of the form's trip through Japan, as well).

    Ro Hai- According to GM Shin's book, some Okinawan's insist this for came from China to Tomari Village in Okinawa, by an unknown martial artist, possilby during the 1600's. GM Pak adds to that, saying that it may have been developed by Master Matsumura when he went to China and studied the Shaolin style. Not sure who Master Matsumura is, though.

    Wang Shu is said by GM Pak to come from White Crane Kung Fu, and was brought to Okinawa in 1644 by a Chinese Military Attache name Master Wang Shu. Sei Shan and Jion are similary said to have come from China to Okinawa.

    Finally, I am not sure how many people know about Japanese Karate, but the original written form of Karate meant china hand, but Japanese nationalism and pride eventually changed the written word from china to empty, still pronouced "kara". Therefore, Karate do originally meant "way of the china hand". Looking at Tang Soo Do's name in this light, gives a very direct link to Japanese Karate, Tang Soo essentially meaning the same thing.

    Anyway, if you do not have them, GM Ho Sik Pak's books are invaluable, as they not only cover the Hyungs themselves, it has the history and the different names of the forms, in Korean, Old Okinawan, Modern Japanese, and English! Very good pictures and includes all 5 Chil sung Hyungs. I am not a member of the Hwa Rang World Tang Soo Do Federation, but I respect GM Ho Sik Pak a good amount!
  14. EB110

    EB110 New Member

    I've only just joined the site and found the forum but I also train as part of the UKTSDF under GM Kang Uk Lee and would like to add my thoughts for what they are worth. Although the history and development of TSD is important so people are not claiming falsehoods, surely the most important thing is the principles of what is taught now. In a society (in the uk anyway) that does not teach respect, discipline, valuing others, self control, manners etc. the principles of TSD make a refreshing change. The children I see at training often have much better "attitudes", for want of a better word, than those I witness frequently wandering through the centre of our village with little else to do. So, although I acknowledge the importance of historical detail and am very interested in it, maybe we are better focusing on the value of TSD in the present. And, I'm definitely not blind to the commercialism!! In fact it forms many of our debates prior to attending seminars, competitions etc but we are not training for survival or to kill in most cases it is just for fun and in that aspect in doesn't cost as much as many of the other pastimes, my horses cost me a damn sight more!

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