[Tang Soo Do] Tang Sou Dao

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv0Zm8xLilE"]YouTube - Tang Sou Dao - Chinese Martial Arts[/ame]

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4FkpTih5s"]YouTube - Tang Sou Dao[/ame]

Sinnister makes legitimate points.

However I still think this is a "McDojo" style, at least the sparring methodology sucks ass and is completely unrealistic.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4FkpTih5s"]YouTube - Tang Sou Dao[/ame]

 

Yep that first video was the one I was referring to.

Infrazael - those videos are not the best though those students are still fairly new so the techniques on display are not going to be the best but I respect them for training. Not sure exactly what style of sparring it is though, the other video makes the sparring look better.

Actually better yet is one of the practioners has been competing in SanShou, check this out (though I do realise he adopts a different aproach for fighting)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUWAIerTiH8&NR=1"]YouTube - Nick Evagorou - Sanshou[/ame]

I have also checked this style out for myself since my last post, while it is early days I have to say I am enjoying it. Training is hard (at least where I train) and I am buggered by the end of it. So far it reminds me very much of the Karate I did when I was younger (****o-Ryu) with the addition of more kicking techniques and some vertical fist punching. Now obviously I have only just started so have not been exposed to everything in the style but I am looking forward to it.

 

From what I saw, this is 'Chinese' Tang Soo Do. I think that it will still be an effective act as it has a strong history

 

Wow, that class sounds horrible and I don't think anyone on these boards would argue with your decision of quiting, heck I would definitely be going somewhere else if that was the case with my training. I am glad to say it is not though and I think you must have had a bad instructor perhaps?

When I train I go expecting to feel absolutley exhuasted by the end as my instructor is someone who pushes his students quite hard and he doesn't put up with people who are not giving their all. Actually some times the 'warmup' itself is quite demanding let alone the rest of the lesson.

The instructor himself is extremely fit and takes part in everything too.

Training does involve some line work but I would say that is pretty common of most TMA at least the ones I have trained in anyway. We also do bag work and 1 and 2 step sparring. I guess it is fairly traditional in the approach to training as we pretty much do the same stuff as when I trained in karate but I knew that before I signed up.

There is no way belts are bought where I train too as there are people there who have trained long enough to get a black belt but won't get one until the have earnt it and can prove through skill and technigque that they deserve it.

And as far as the whole money thing goes, well it is actually the one of the cheapest places to train I could find.

I guess I might be biased since I am now a member of this organisation but I honestly think you might have gotten a bad instructor as I could not see any similarity with what you described and my own training.

 

Timmyboy no offense taken at all. In actual fact I am happy that you have posted these comments for discussion, afterall that is what I asked people to do. I would be a bit of a loser if I complained about it now lol.

I still kind of think your bad experience has come from from your instructor though. Just saying this as our experiences to the same style are remarkebly different. Not sure about the organisation as a whole being about money either as my training costs me next to nothing. Compared to the prices they charge around here they could be asking for a hell of a lot more.

I do agrre with some of the points about fighting though. There is no doubt that someone who trained in boxing or kickboxing etc would be able to partake in a fight much sooner and at a better ability than someone doing Tang Sou Dao. But then again I would say that this would be true of anyone who studies a 'traditional martial art'. I chose this style as it appealed to me and offered what I was looking for, all the time knowing that this was the case. I think that these days most people who study TMA are aware of this but sign up anyway as other needs of theirs are being met.

The people who I train with are as you say very skilled in their techniques, and I do believe they could handle themselves in a fight if the situation arose but for their sakes I hope that it does not. The techniques you mention and have a problem with are not an indication of these people being able to fight, they are merely exercses to improve coordination, flexibility, strenght, focus, balance and technique. Having trained in other traditional styles there is not much different here than what I have experienced elsewhere (apart from breaking). I have come to enjoy the slow kicking techniques after hating them at first as it is a very hard thing to do but can slowly see myself improve, which is a nice feeling.

I also agree that other styles such as boxing or kickboxing/MMA etc may be more of a workout but I am honest in saying that I am knackered after training. My instructor is extremely fit and expects hard work from all of his students and pushes us every lesson. I myself am reasonably fit too I might add but I am normaly left without breath once a lesson due to him trying to get the most out of me. I have trained in Muay Thai before and I would say that overall it was a harder workout, TSD is still a hard workout too which also tests the body with stregth exercises like one legged squats,push ups situps and low stance stepping etc. Not saying I disagree but I still think it still provides a good workout compared to other styles I have done (karate,wing chun, Muay thai).

I also think that this is to be expected of a TMA compared to boxing/kickboxing etc and is a statement that could also ring true of many traditional styles. From my experience traditional styles have a different focus than boxing and the like which do get students fighting quite quickly and used to contact. I think there are advantages and disadvantages to both, it is up to the potential stylist themselves to decide which one suits them best.

 

I also train in Tang Sou Dao, I have been doing it for about 20 months now I suppose.

It sounds Timmy like your experience could be instructor related. Any of the problems you said I don't relate to in my area and classes with my instructor.

I must say I have been doing loads of forms of martail arts for years. I am 43 now and started martial arts back when I was about ten. I have dabbled in various forms of Karate, Tae Kown Do, Kung Fu, Tang Soo Do, Boxing, Judo to name a few.

I started Tang Sou Dao about 20 months ago and went along to watch a lesson. I was really impressed at my local class with the skills, techniques etc... Out of all the years I have done various arts, I find Tang Sou Dao a great style and has a lot more superior teachings and methodology to a lot of the other traditional styles I have done.

My Instructor is great, a reall genuine guy and one of the most knowledgable and dedicated martial artists I have trained with. He is very fit, joins in all the warm up and class and is always helpful and pushes us to our limits every lesson. I think a lot could be down to your experience with your school and Instructor, Tim.

As we all know there are so many styles of martial art and there is something for everyone.

I find Tang Sou Dao a lot more advanced and practical to the Korean style Tang Soo Do, and I do hold a 1st Dan in the Korean style after doing that for several years.

I found the Korean style quite basic in comparison to Tang Sou Dao. I have learnt so much since starting Tang Sou Dao even after how many years I have done various styles.

Also like you say there may be a variation between clubs/areas. I am really happy where I train and I can see myself sticking at this one for the long term. Also the prices are one of the cheapest in the area.

Our area has quite a lot of varied arts to try but this one is one of the best for value for money I find. From what I have personally seen in my area is no way a McDojo. The lessons are very challanging and extremely varied and the instructor clearly lays out what he expects. Also my grading pre tests with my instructor are the hardest I have ever had!

Where did you train Tim and also Sinnister?

 

Hi Martialmad

I am part of the Autralian club. We are small at the moment but with the quality of teaching that us students have available I don't see it staying that way for long.

Like you I haven't been training for long (less than you have actually) but can already see myself sticking around for the long term. This is the first time that I have honestly set myself a long term goal (in achieving 1st Duan) and realise that it will take a long time and even more hard work but I am going to stick with it.

It's funny that I have done Karate, Wing Chun and some kickboxing years ago (in some cases many years) and despite enjoying my training was not affected by it as much as Tang Sou Dao has affected me. Perhaps it is the instructor or the style itself, not sure, but something certainly agrees with me.

 

Hi Sinnister

I also practise something that sounds similar in name and in how you train (Tang Soo Tao).

Some of the points Tim made I agree with about training methodology, but in general I enjoy it alot.

Where in aus are you?

 

Hi Sinnister, you must be training with William Parsons then? I think thats who is in Australia according to the web site.

Like you say, I have done a load of martial arts over the years but have really learnt a lot from this style. Obviously people will knock all styles of martial arts, you going to get that no matter what and like I say there are styles for everyone.

What I personally like about Tang Sou Dao is that the syllabus is wide a varied. Ok a lot of the kicking techniques are similar to the Korean style Tang Sou Dao but the training methods to develop kicks are far superior in my opinion. I have held one of the kick bags when my instructor hits it with a kick, I can feel my internal organs shake LOL!!! and usually end up the other end of the hall! I also find the hand techniques and stances far more practical and advanced to the Korean Tang Soo Do. I believe this is where Grandmaster Loke has incorporated a lot of his Chinese teachings into the Tang Soo Do Style.

From what Tim says about the style and federation, I have never found. My instructor is one of the most skilled, dedicated and experienced martial artists I have had the pleasure to train with. He does not just stand there and shout commands, he will demonstrate everything a few times and always has time for his students morning, noon or night. Tim, I think if you had a problem with your instructor always late for class, prehaps you should of addressed it with a letter or email to Gm Loke. From what I gather he is quite open and welcomes letters and comments from anyone to improve the fed.

Also from the fitness side of things its one of the hardest work outs I have done in my years of training. Again this may come down to instructor and different areas. But even when I done Kick boxing the workout was not as hard as what I do now. Again this may be due to instructor. My instructor does push his students hard but is very fair. He is trying to get the best out of each person individually.

For a traditional martial art, I love Tang Sou Dao and out of all the styles that I have done over 30 or so years, this is the one I have personally been most taken too and hope to be doing for the long term. But again is personal preference at the end of the day.

As for cost, my training fees are the cheapest in my area. I have trained with a load of different styles around my area and I find this one the best value by far, even the gradings are very good value compared to a load of other styles I have graded with over the years.

As for a Mcdojo, well this style is not!

In my area, my grading pre tests with my instructor are the hardest I have ever had to do. My instructor will put no one forward for grading until he/she has earned the opportunity. Obviously the grading syllabus has guidelines of time scales between gradings and my instructor will take this into account, but from what I have seen he will not put no one forward until they are 300% ready. Again with any tradition style, most gradings are run the same. You will be lined up a few at a time and asked to perform techniques and forms. This has been the same in Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Tang Soo Do etc... From my experience I have not seen a grading conveyor belt in this style at all. Everyone in my area has to work damn hard every lesson and know there techniques / moves inside out to even have the opportunity to be pre-tested by the instructor.

I have trained with some styles / associations where they literally hand out belts for nothing and the cost people were paying for training fees was a rip off, but people stuck with it as they were getting graded fast and quickly and many could acheive black belt statuts in 18 months to 2 years, but their technique and skill could be laughed at. From my personal experience in Tang Sou Dao this is no way the case.

Tim who did you train with when you were practicing TSD?

 

Hi Martialmad

Yes William Parsons is my instructor. Maybe you have met him before? He is a very good instructor and like yours pushes us hard but still at the end of every lesson I love it and can't wait for the next lesson.

I also agree with your description of the style. There are a lot of kicks to be learnt and perfected but it is not like TKD where kicking is everything. I realy do think that it is a balanced style as like you say we have very effective hand techniques to complement our kicks. I actually trained last night and noticed some of the hand techniques the senior students were doing. Sort of reminded me of some of the stuff I did in Wing Chun (but different) and I am looking forward to getting to the level when I can try and perfect these techniques myself.

I am loving this style also, it is challenging yet rewarding, I have a great instructor and the other students are all great too. I am seeing myself improve gradually too which only pushes me further. The only thing that I would say it lacks is some weapons training, at least I have not seen any or heard of any but this is only minor and certainly will not stop me from loving it.

I agree, there is certainy nothing McDojo about Tang Sou Dao. The original claims of this earlier in the thread are just one members opinion which I think was derived from already having there mind up when they looked at the website (which I don't think they did too thoroughly either). Everyone else seemed to just jump on board with no real investigation done on their own parts. I am actually very pleased to be associated with this organisation where all members are treated with respect regardless of rank. I am looking forward to meeting GM Loke one day too.

Thanks for sharing your own experiences Martial Mad. It is good to hear from another practioner of this style!

 

Thanks Sinnister, glad you enjoy it too. I really prefer it than the Tang Soo Do. I done the Korean version for a few years with a few various associations but I find Grandmaster Loke's Tang Sou Dao far more practical and the hand techniques, like you say are similar to some of the Wing Chun & White Crane styles. I like the use of the hard long range external power and the use of soft and internal short range stuff too.

 

I think you will find this with most traditional style martial arts though and its not just Tang Sou Dao. When I done various forms of Tang Soo Do this was the same but a lot worst and a lot more expensive as well. And you say about the GM reluctance to fail, really any good instructor who pre tests the students prior to grading, then this should not happen anyway. I know my instructor will not put no one forward until he/she is 300% ready and capable and his pre tests are so so hard no matter what grade you go for. So if you make it through his pre tests then you are bound to breexe throught the actual grading, but if you done make his pre tests then you wont be put forward at all.

I think it is effective as any martial is / could be, obviously in any martial art you take the bits you need and use them in a way that is practical and will have maximum effect in a real situation even if its a handful of techniques from a martail arts syllabus. I have done a lot of styles over the year and a lot of what I have probably learnt is not effective in a real situation but if I applied bits and pieces in my own adaption I think I would stand a litle chance of being able to defend myself to a reasonable standard.

I don't think we have instructor worship as you call it where I train, there is a mutual healthy respect bothways, the students respect the instructor as he is a good instuctor and martial artist, but he does not demand respect, I think he feels that he would not ask his students to perform anything that he could not do himself. I think if my instructor was ever late then he would probably turn around the his students and not even charge them as I feel and think he is a firm believer of leading by example.

 

i do tang sou dao and i love it

my tang sou story starts like this......

I met my current partner and we moved to a new town, he did Tang Sou Dao in essex and was keen to keep it up so he was made up when the town we wanted to move to had a local instructor.

I trained in tae kwon do when i was younger and was going to return to this but after he had been going for a few weeks, came home shattered and seemed to have had a great work out and everyone in the club seemed so nice, i thought i would give it a try.

That was 16 months ago and needless to say i never made it to a tae kwon do lesson, and have never looked back.

my instructor does 4 lessons a week, all aimed at different levels and all have children who attend, and whilst i have days where they are a little annoying i wouldnt have it any other way. The instructor keeps them well under control and the nice thing is we have so many familys, dads and theirs sons, mothers and daughters etc etc...which is really nice to see.

The lessons are very varied and the instructor constantly relates the moves to what could happen on the street and how you could amend a move to suit that kind of situation. We are always told that the high kicks we do are to improve flexability etc, and on the street we would do lower kicks etc. our instructor participates in everything we do, he demonstrates every move...and we could only wish we will ever look as good as him!

One thing with martial arts is some people are better than others, some can kick better, some punch etc etc, the instructor's duty is to push you to your level and to forfill your potential not someone elses, so Timmy whilst your friend may not have been able to do a reverse punch correctly what did you want your instrutor to do never grade him again? keep him at the same level for ever because he couldn't do one move correctly? We are constantly pushed to forfill our own full potential not the person next to us. Something that you dont seems to realise.

Timmy is correct when you first join you are given a "guide" and i must clearly say a "guide" to how many lessons are required to attend a grading. some people clearly will fly through lessons as they should really be in some kind of bruce lee movie, but the rest us may hit the standard within this period and some may take longer. i never got anything like this in tae kwon do, i had nothing to aim for i simply was told oh your grading next week.

i personally think an instructors job must be very difficult they need to balance skill levels with keeping the student motivated, if someone never grades until they do everything perfect they will become so de-motivated they will leave, something an instructor doesnt want.

The thing I love about the gradings is Grand Master Loke comes up to grade you...not many martial arts where the founder of the art comes to grade you. he does the hour lesson before the grading and watches every move, so in reality the grading is a 2 hour affair and not just you producing a few moves and breaking a board...as previously described.

As to tang sou dao being a "money making" organisation I know for a fact that my instructor teaches for the love of teaching and passing on his gift.

with regards to the videos shown they are of beginers practising for a competition..their first compeition.. the compeitions are not about putting two people in a room and letting them kill each other they are about putting your skills into practise. the compeitions have various rules to stop people from being injured such as no kicking in the back etc. The competition is not about trying to injure people, tang sou dao clearly pushes the "respect for others" moto...when i did a tae kwon do competition i was so padded up i could hardly move.

Timmy - do you actually want to do a martial art where you get injured, where you injure someone and break a leg so that person cant drive to work for 6 weeks?? if this is the kind of sport you want prehaps you need to take a good look in the mirror because to be honest if i ran a club i wouldnt want people like you in it. The clue is in the title..Martial Art...not Martial lets beat the crap out of someone!

I sugguest people log on to U tube and look for the offical tang sou dao video of last years compeition.

All matial arts are different and different people want different things from them. i loved tae kwon do when i was younger, but having tried tang sou dao i clearly prefer this but this doesnt make tae kwon do some kind of Mcdojo!.

For those who have tried tang sou dao and not enjoyed it thats a shame, for those of you who have not tried it but sit in your arm chair compairing styles well get off your **** get down to a class for a few months and then comment.

For those who wish to try i sugguest you give it a whirl and like many others i am sure you will love it.


Tang Sou!

oh ....One last thing - timmy if it was that bad how come you trained for over a few years? and why did your friends stay on?

 

Timmy I respect your opinion and as stated I do thank you for sharing in this thread but at this stage (thankfully) I can not see any of the problems you state within the organisation myself.

The sparring is a gripe but in all honesty how is this sparring format any different from most karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, tang soo do schools? You mention hard contact must be present in sparring and I do agree that getting students used to contact is beneficial to them but the absence of this is consistent with most TMA schools (apart from Kyokoshin if it is counted as traditional). If people are after contact then they can go to a Kickboxing/MMA class or at the very least hold the kickshields/pads close to their body to get some sort of feel for it or conditioning. Tang Sou Dao doesn't market itself as the hardest style like Kyokushin or the like so why would people be suprised to find no contact? I don't see this as a problem with Tang Sou Dao but if it was then it is a problem with TMA as a whole and perhaps we should all stop training in TMA styles?

I can see your point with the gradings too, stuff like that is frustrating and it has happened to me in an old style I used to do. Once again though I haven't seen this happen. I know that my instructor will only put forward people he is sure are ready and as stated we have people at my club that have trained long enough for most people to have gotten a black belt (or midnight blue) by now but as they are not ready there is no way they will be allowed to grade yet.

You are a fan of reality/contact/ martial arts (if that is a fair way to categorise it?) so obviously you are not going to find what appeals to you with Tang Sou Dao ( as you have found out through your own experience). It is a shame you had a less than ideal training environment as I really do think that would have improved things for you.

At the end of the day we are both biased, you love your style I love mine (and can't wait to the next training session) I think either way whatever a potential student chooses it is all beneficial as they are training and not sitting round playing xbox or whatever. Wether they choose a TMA or something with more contact like Muay Thai or MMA so be it.

Oh and I don't think that that Tang Sou Gen was trying to attack you mate, I am guessing that like me and Martialmad they are finding some of this hard to believe (not saying you are lying though) as it is so far removed from what we see ourselves at training.

Tang Sou!

 

Nice post Sinnister, think you summed it up nicely there. I think, as you say we find some of the things Timmy has said hard to believe as none of us has experienced it at all in training with our instructors and only have had good experiences. Fair play to Timmy for sharing his experiences as the initial thread asked. I know I was not knocking Timmy, just found the things he was saying about the federation hard to beleive as I have not come across any of his problems that he has had.

 

Martial arts schools are a personal choice.People will not agree that school x is great or that school y is better, people look for different things in thier schools. You will be hard pressed to find any school that has 100% student satisfaction(except mine ). If you enjoy what you are training in then who cares what others think. To be fair Timmy made some good points about sparring, you cant go wrong with a bit of hard sparring and there is no reason why you couldnt do a bit outside of class if you feel like it. I also remember when Timmy trained in TSD and used to post on this board, he seemed to enjoy it. You may find you want to move on to a different style at some point yourselves, or find that youve had enough of org politics. Ive seen it happen a lot over the years.

 

Timmy I do agree that hard contact sparring is something that is very usefull in allowing a student to gauge what may happen in a real fight and if they are ready or not to really defend themselves. That is a point you made that I do agree with. I do remember my instructor saying to me that it was something that we could explore once I progressed further if I was interested (which I am). But this would not apply to all students, a lot of people want to study martial arts to learn the 'art'. Wether they realise the fact that this may not actually prepare them for what happens in a real fight is a different story. GM Loke does profess that it is a style effective for self defense (which all karate,kung fu and TMA schools do) and to be honest I agree. Now the training methods may not prepare a student for it but the techniques learnt are. If a student trains with some contact sparring in their own time or can organise it with an instructor than I think they have a good base to build on ( maybe adding some judo or BJJ to become more proficient in clinch and grappling).


Just wondering Timmy, do you think we should all stop training in TMA and start MMA ( this is not intended as a hostile question either). Do you see any value in TMA?

 

Why does this always devolve into a TMA vs. MMA argument.

MMA is based on traditional martial arts.

There are TMA in the world that make average MMA guys look soft.

Another example of a great TMA is Muay Thai - based on art over 1800 years old.

 

I wouldn't say that this has turned into a TMA MMa arguement by any means at all.
I asked Timmy what his opinions on TMA are because all his posts have been informative, insightfull and a good read.
As he is now a MMA student I thought it would be insightfull to hear his opinion on TMA comming from a MMA perspective.
Sure this is probably nothing new but then again as you pointed out with Muay Thai pretty much all martial arts is old news.... I mean even if you look at 'modern' stuff like MMA and the like, the style itself may be new but the techniques themselves are old as.
Sorry Infrazel but I didnt find your post helpfull