[Tang Soo Do] Re: State of TSD/SBD; Politics

I had been reading up on Master Nolan's site about the 1995 split of Master Ah Po and Master Ferraro from GM Hwang Kee's federation because they were displeased with the politics behind the scenes. How has politics influenced your association/form of TSD?

Also on a related note - the state of Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do from what I have seen is leaning towards child day care type schools and more family oriented programs. Even the tournament sparring (at least in the US SBD Federation) has been toned down to a family happy no contact. I feel that the more combat oriented, martial arts center of TSD has been lost in favor of appeasing the consumer. Do any of the rest of you see this progression?

And to clarify, I'm not debating the merits of the system, just the politics and current state of organizations. Seems like an issue that most Tang Soo Do practictioners (or other Moo Duk Kwan affiliates) would have to address for themselves sooner or later, especially with the MDK's checkered political history.

 

I would agree, for the most part. My school broke away from the ITF a few years back due to the politics involved (although there was one particular example they gave that I didn't agree with at all). I won't go into detail, but it is certainly true that politics have long been a part of any large martial arts organizations (in recent times).

 

It's true that SBD is toned down to a 'no-contact' but when you think about it, it makes sense. SBD is different from any other 'karate' because it's not a 'sport karate.' In sport karate, the objective is to 'be better than everybody else' and in SBD, the objective is to be better than you already are. I mean, as a beginner in SBD, you'd feel uncomfortable kicking the crap out of your classmates, and getting the crap beaten out of you. In SBD, when you reach a more advanced level (red belt & dan) light contact to the body is allowed, and at SBD Naitonals, the no-contact rule isn't really inforced.

 

Weenus and me discussed this last night and I saw two different views on this issue. On one hand the no contact holds you back because you can't see if your techniques will work under extreme conditions like if you are being attacked and need to defend yourself unless you have trained your body to use your training while being punched then you could easily freeze up. Then you have to look at the fact that when you do use full contact then people will get hurt and most parents that put their kids in martial arts dont' want there kid to end up getting seriously hurt which could lead to lawsuits.

 

Well the sparring was just to illustrate how I feel TSD/SBD is not what it used to be - indirectly (or maybe directly) due to not only changing times but politics. I am more interested in what you guys think of all the different associations and federations that broke off of GM Hwang's federation and the politics behind it. It seems like a taboo issue, no one really talks about it. Which is probably better, otherwise TSD associations might end up bickering like all the Wing Chun lineages.

I am also curious to know from the non-US SBD Federation TSD practictioners what the reason was that the head(s) of you organizations broke off. I hear rumors that most of it was either due to the way the federation was handled, or they disputed GM HC Hwang's appointment as GM, or they just wanted to. I am curious since there's not too much info available on it aside from Master Ah Po's letters on Master Nolan's site.

 

I don't think it should be taboo. This is the information age and one should be able to state their opinions (in a respectful manner) without the persecution of their higher-ups.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way, for whatever reason.

 

So you saying there should be no contact untill the dan levels?

 

There's a difference between 'contact' and 'hitting.' Contact means a tap to the body in which the attacker has complete control over his technique to deliver a strike touching the body without hurting his opponent. Contact is allowed at red & dan level because the practicioner has had say 3+ years of experience in SBD, so they should be allowed to make it more 'life-like' for themselves and the people watching them preform. 'Hitting' is what they do in say TKD where the objective is to be better than the other person, hurt the other person, and do whatever is necessary 'to get the trophy.'

I don't think that say white belts through green and maybe even some red belts have the control / discipline over their techniques to safely have a 'semi-contact' free-sparring match, ESPECIALLY children. Just think of it....you have some big, experienced 8 year old bully up againt a 7 year old inexperienced shrimp in a CONTACT free-sparring match....even with protective equipment the 7 year old is STILL going to get hurt, and the 7 year old is still going to complain to parents, and the parents are going to complain, hell it could even lead to lawsuits if the kid is seriously hurt....it's not worth it.

It'll even work with adults too. Say you have two 20-year old white belts in a contact free-sparring match. They'll get too caught up in the 'get the point' aspect to safely deliver techniques to their opponent due to LACK OF EXPERIENCE and end up hurting one another. I've seen it happen.

It's safer just to let the experienced red belts / dans do the contact game and let the inexperienced students get their techniques down before they start making contact w/ other people with them.

 

Hello!
Sparring
I do Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan and this is how we handle sparring. Until you receive your uniform and white belt (3 months) you are not allowed to spar. Once you get them, you go to heavy contact sparring with no protection.

You are not allowed to punch to the head, and there are no front punches to the body, only back punches. However, we do have kicks to the head. I have seen a broken nose, a small eye injuru and have also been personally kicked in the head twice.

What is the benefit of all this? CONFIDENCE! I cannot emphasize this enough. Nothing can boost your fighting-confidence more than landing a side kick or a roundhouse in your opponents ribs, or a successful counter-attacking move. As a result, if I ever do get into a fight, I will no longer be at a disadvantage because I have never been in a similar situation. High-pressure sparring is the best possible way to boost confidence.

Another benefit is attack dedication. It is very important to stick to an attack even if you get drilled while doing it. Getting used to being hit is also a very positive aspect of sparring.

I need to add to add that I am part of a university club, just like EternalRage, so no kids.

As far as politics, we are affiliated with WTF. The WTF is a symbol of South Korean identity and since the Master is a very proud Korean and an ex-army officer, he felt that it was best for him to be associated with the WTF (or so I think). However, he still wanted to teach MDK and got the best of both worlds.

 

If you wan to build confidence then learning to take hits and pain is a must. The last thing you want to do is to train without hitting as you'll only find it hurst to get it and hurst to hit.

If you train this way you'll be surprised when contact is finally added. Five years of sparring and not being able to take a hit is no good.

I dont mean you go ballistic against your partner, but let them know what they've been hit. How else are you going to know you would have successfully made contact if you dont have any. You also wont learn to block or guard correctly. It's ok knowing they wont really hit you, but when you know they will, you WILL block/guard. When contact is added, you'll probably find your blocks and guard isn't efficient againt any attacks. It easy to 'pretend' to block or guard but you dont learn anything, whereas if i keep getting hit in the head, i know i need to work on my guard. If i keep getting hit in the check, i know i need to work on my blocks, or counter attacks or movement. How else am i going to know.

I do of course train without contact as well to get used to putting combinations together as it's alot more relaxed, but i still try them out in actual sparring, where i often find that what works with no contact is totally ineffective with contact (jumping spinning kicks being a prime example). I think non-contact and contact two diffrent training methods, both with there uses.

I will also mention that i think it's important to start sparring as soon as you can. People can start sparring where i train after a few class/weeks. In this case it's no contact, the aim is to simply get the person used to doing multiple and continuous techniques against a moving opponent.

 

Sometimes the only way out of a fight if to hurt you opponent

Are you seriously saying you dont train to hit or land blows?

I dont think any martial arts aim to hurt your fellow students, but if you want to learn to fight you need to take a bit of pain. If you try and bypass than you in for a nasty shock.

 

Some of the worst habits I have blocking-wise were picked up during non-contact sparring. I knew they were going to stop, so I did blocks that not only have not worked well in heavy-contact, but have had disastrous consequences.

Bottomline is, you just have to spar from time to time, even if it is once a month. I think it is even more important at the lower levels. If you are very proficient, you would be able to adapt to a fight. If you are not, though, chances are you might get hit very hard, when you try to pull some technique which has never been pressure-tested.

 

Okay speaking from experience from being in full contact sparring (TKD,Kickboxing) when I was younger I did get hurt far as bruising, wind knocked out of me, hurt my shin pretty bad from doing a sweep. I didn't mind getting hurt though because the reason I got in martial arts when I was younger is because I got picked on a lot because I was always the smallest kid in class. I had two choices to either learn to defend myself by taking hits in training and learn how to counterattack or continue to get beat on outside of class. Over time I got used to getting hit and could get punched/kicked hard and still be focused and defend myself without throwing sloppy punches due to adrenaline(that’s because I sparred full contact.) If I was doing non contact sparring until I became a red belt or black belt then I would have severely got beaten until I got to that point. Like already stated in this thread you won't know if your block will be effective if you are not having a punch or kick coming at you full force or at least medium force. There are more benefits to using contact in sparring than just "scoring" a point it’s to prepare you for the possibility that you will not be able to walk away from a fight. I plan sparring in my class after a month or two once I feel I am ready...

 

Ok cool, thanks for all the viewpoints on sparring. So if you're not with the Soo Bahk Do Federation under the Hwang family line, would you happen to know why your respective masters/grandmasters broke off from the original Moo Duk Kwan? Do you think their reasoning was justified? Also for the Soo Bahkers here, what do you think about the members that left, the other associations and such?

Just so we're clear, I'm not starting lineage wars... had my fill of that when I was still a Chunner. But unlike the WC clans who are SO open about their differences, the TSD associations don't really talk about it that much.

Thanks!

 

I can see your all's points on contact free-sparring. They do make sense, but I still can't say that full-contact free sparring with 3 months of training is necessary. In SBD, you're not allowed to actually make contact during free sparring until you reach Dan level, because you've had enough experience to control your techniques to deliver a powerful attack to your opponent so that IF the opponent doesn't block it, you won't totally clean his clock with your attack, but you'll let them know they missed the block. Somebody with 3 months of experience has absolutely no control over their techniques to have a SAFE free-sparring match with contact.

It's not like SBD doesn't teach you how to fight. I've only been in ONE situation where SBD was necessary. Back when I was 14, there was some TKD punk black belt at my school who found out that I did martial arts and he thought he could wipe the floor with me. I said, 'Forget this, it's not worth it.' Then, he tried to pull a fast one on me from behind, and a quick spinning-back kick cracked his rib and sat him down. Nobody's heard a PEEP out of that kid since. I didn't go start it- I wasn't down for a fight...I just got myself out of it as quickly as possible.

All I'm saying is that controlled contact free-sparring can work just as well in the real world as controlled non-contact free-sparring.

 

At my school you will spar after a few lessons. We generally spar light contact but adults and senior belts will use medium/heavy. Non contact is only used when someone is having trouble controlling thier strikes or if we spar without pads. I think the rules are similar to most TSD schools apart from hand teqs are allowed to the head and face. Very few people have had trouble with control.

Im from JC Shins lineage. I believe he used to be the head of the US wing of the MDK and was replaced by HC Hwang. Not being too happy about this he left and formed his own org(World TSD ). Personally ive not noticed much in the way of lineage wars in TSD. Ive never heard people from my org badmouthing other lineages or vice versa. We seem to get on well(online anyway), its all good in my book.

 

At my school we also spar after a few lessons.

We start with light contact to the body, none to the head and progress up to heavy contact to the body including sweeps, grappling and ground work and sometimes include light contact to the head (sometimes with and sometimes without headgear).

It's amazing what a difference it makes to actually be attacked with intent and take a hit now and then (not to mention being swept, thrown and taken down).

My instructor's instructor studied under GMs Kim, Shin and Min (primarily under Kim).

 

Where are you located? My old school was just like what you described, from the sparring to the affiliation with WTF; though our Gi's not doboks are the old kind and our form of sparring is not the hands down, switching stuff ... if you don't block, you'll get ktfo! Of course, the instructors are there supervising and the higher belts know not to go too hard with novices. They push em hard enough for em to work on their techniques ... mainly blocking!hehheheh

Master Ju Hun Kim, in Charlotte, NC. He's old school as you can get!

 

Hmmm .... interesting tale.