[Tang Soo Do] Question on Moo Duk Kwan/Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do

Sounds interesting, i will check the book out!

 

Yeah, Tang Soo Do was about before before Hwang Ki started using the name but I believe pretty much all TSD now can trace its lineage back to the MDK.

 

Nah.

Taekwondo, Dangsoodo, Karatedo...it's all the same thing...

 

Okay, as promised. I just ordered 'Shotokan's secrets' and also 'Okinawan Karate' i'll let you know how it goes.

 

Okay 'Shotokan's Secrets' arrived today.

Firstly i will say, im extremely impressed. Its a very well written book that really puts forward some interesting ideas. Its given me a new found respect for traditional Karate and also the Okinawans who have endured such a long history of hardship. Im already half way through the book and cant seem to put it down.

The concept of the 'official story' (tatamae) and the 'true story' (Honne) in asian culture certainly explains the loop holes in TMA history. It also goes into great detail about how each form was created and who created them. I must say at this point i was completely convinced that TSD's forms were taken directly from Shuri-te...

However, i then noticed a small clue which contradicts this theory. In chapter 8 the book goes through a Kata analasis between Naihanji/Naihanchi/tekki before and after they were changed into shuri-te forms.
The 'before' is taken from Isshin-ryu founded by Chotoku Kyan, who rebeled against his masters who had imposed Shuri-te on him as a child. He did this by harking back to the chinese martial arts practiced before shuri-te was developed in Okinawa, and therefore practiced and taught the original form as taught to Sakugawa by CMAists.
The 'after' is taken from Funakoshi's shotokan karate.

When cross referenced with GM lee's Tang Soo Do, we see the last move of Naihanji cho dan is...

From this we can presume that the TSD naihanji is closer to the one in Isshin-ryu than Shotokan.

However it is also stated...

So it is theorised by the author that the original version taught to Sakugawa started by side stepping to the right, which was then carried through to Shotokan however we see that Kyan changed it as a gesture to his distain for Shuri-te. The TSD version of the form starts by stepping to the right, I.e the same as the original and the Shotokan. Therefore it would seem that Hwang Kee must have gained (at least) the Naihanji form from the source as opposed to learning it through another system.

What do you think? Am i onto something?

 

Two theories I have...

1. GM Hwang Kee learned the form from a book, and interperated it his own way...
2. GM Hwang Kee changed it on purpose, for whatever reason, whatever the source he learned it from.

Good eyes, man! Very nice catch, Sean!

 

Those thories are both fair assumptions. I will look into the "official" history of Hwang Kee and see if i can find any clues when i have time.

Thanks a lot for introducing me to the book BTW. I havent enjoyed a book this much for ages, it has some really great applications for the Pinans towards the end of the book which really helps me understand the forms better. Is there any other good books you would suggest for a TSD practitioner?

 

Official history of Hwang Kee is that he learned the kata from a book, either one of Funakoshi's or one of the early ****o-ryu manuals. He also trained with Lee Wonkuk of Chungdokwan, who learned the Shotokan kata. He did not bring this form back from China.

 

If applications and practical fighting skills are what you're looking for as far as your hyung...check out Iain Abernethy.

 

Hmm..

You are totally welcome! I was also blown away by this book, it helped me bridge a final unseen gap between TSD and Shotokan. As for other book suggestions, there are many (depending on your rank ), and for right now since I have fully accepted the Okinawian connection (sounds like a bad movie title!), I am in the process of researching everything from the Karate-Do angle. My first thought was about all the things that are different, are they changed for a good reason, or just for the sake of change. For instance, TSD generally does it's knife-hand block with both hands chambered on the same hip, and they both come out at the same time (at least I think all TSD does...), and Karate they cross them first, then pull them back, almost like an inside to outside block (please, anybody, correct me if I am, um, incorrect). Which is better, why was it changed?

One of my favorite books at the moment is a little gem called "Beyond the Black Belt", which I wish I had right when I got my ChoDan.

Other than that one, I suggest you look for any Japanese Karate books. Iain Abernethy is excellent, as is Bill Berger. Iains books can sometimes be hard to obtain in the states, and from his site are kind of expensive. Bill's book, "Five Years, One Kata" is an excellent approach to learning, and provides some good insight. Wish I could devote five years to Kong Sang Koon...

As far as history of TSD or Karate goes, I haven't found too much, other than small biographies of its various Masters. "Oyama, the legend, the legacy" was a great read for me (even if edited badly).

Tell me if you find anything, always looking for a great Martial Arts read!!

Tang Soo!!

 

It seems that the history of Hwang Kee is fairly vague and seems to miss out vital pieces of information. I think we should look at the various histories and see what we can gather.

Okay, so, we know that Hwang Kee's first experience of Martial Arts was as a child, in his village where a master of a Martial Art (supposedly Taekkyun) fought off a group of attackers (most mention that he used, intricate footwork and kicks, which backs up the taekkyun theory) The young Hwang Kee followed the master home and asked the master to teach him his art, the master refused on the grounds that H.K was too young. H.K was not disheartened and watched the master practice from a hill, and imitated the movements.

Now this is where the story jumps forward over 10 years. So what happened in these 10 years? How did H.K practice the techniques he learned? Why didnt he ask the taekkyun master to teach him again when he had grown up? Was he practicing martial arts at all during these years? If so what techniques did he learn from Taekkyun that influenced MDK. You would assume if he had studied it for a decade that it must be apparent in MDK. These are the kinds of loopholes that i mean, why are these questions never addressed.

Lets move on. H.K was stationed in Manchuria, and it was here, at the age of 20, he gained his first master, Master Yang. Master Yang we know taught H.K a Chinese martial art everyother day for about a year. H.K had to leave Manchuria and return to Seoul, for what is said to be "personal reasons." A few years later he returned to Master Yang for a short time for further training (starwars anyone? ) This was the last time he saw or contacted Master Yang as China became a communist country.

Okay, so. What do we know about Master Yang? What CMA exactly did GM Hwang learn from Master Yang? Again what influence did this have on his development of MDK? Are there any clues in the Chil sung forms? Perhaps H.K lifted some techniques straight from the CMA he learned, if so which ones and for what purpose? How much could he have learned i his 1 year of training?

H.K had returned to Korea. To continue his training, he looked to the library at the train station where he was working. He found books on Okinawan Karate and studied them with great interest for the next 5 years. At this point he creates the Tang Soo (Soo Bah) Do Moo Duk Kwan.

There must be something missing. Hwang Kee's experience in the martial arts at this point was:

-Taekkyun, self taught, from the age of 7 til 20.
-Chinese Martial arts, Master Yang, 20 til 21.
-Okinawan Karate, from books, 21 til 26.

Its amazing that he founded a system of Martial Arts after only a year of formal training. I cant help but think that we arent being told the whole story here. H.K took many forms from Okinawan Karate however he modified them mainly by adding the hip applications to the techniques, for what reason did he do this, and where did his inspiration come from?

 

Seanyseanybean, looks like you finally caught up. You've done a basic outline of the inconsistencies in the MDK history. Just to clarify, my response is in no way implying that DJN Hwang Kee presented false information, to do so would also imply that I somehow know the truth, which I don't. But the reported history does leave room for questions.

There are some that would even debate this. Although it is unreasonable to expect certificates or pictures, a name of the instructor and possible lineages would have helped to clear the lack of identifying information. There are some that would argue that in this case, lack of evidence is evidence of lack.

The History of the Moo Duk Kwan text does not address these questions, although it is a rather abridged version of the history, only focusing mainly on post 1945 events. Perhaps the Korean texts include further history, I have yet to read them.

The History of the Moo Duk Kwan text only outlines the kung fu training with general terms such as "Kwon Bup". I have read of students' brief efforts in tracking down the said Chinese master, his students, school, or lineage, but they didn't go far and were very inconclusive.

The Chil Sung forms are an interpretation of the Muye Dobo Dong Ji, I highly doubt that DJN Hwang Kee, in trying to preserve the technique of Soo Bahk in the book would mix it with Chinese kung fu technique. The principles on breathing, circular motion, etc that are evident in kung fu may have translated over, but that is still unclear.

At one point in time, there were two forms in the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum, longfist and the 108 yang tai chi form. They have been discarded for quite some time, but those were the only actual kung fu techniques that existed in the system.

It was originally called Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, then changed to Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. It was not named Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan till June 30, 1960.

There are some out there that would argue that the hip techniques translated from the Okinawan karate, because in certain styles, the hip is used as extensively as it is in Moo Duk Kwan systems. Some also argue that there may be more to the Won Kuk Lee connection. WKL was the head of the Chung Do Kwan, and friend of DJN Hwang Kee - he was the person who suggested the name "Tang Soo Do." Some even argue that DJN Hwang Kee may have actually received training from WKL, although records of that have yet to be found.

The whole story hasn't been told, and the precious few that know most likely will not be around after the next 10 or 20 years. The best thing we can hope for is that practitioners not make blind assumptions or try to fill in the gaps themselves, and continue to ask questions. As long as we stop the legends, the myths, and the rumors, and keep the questions alive, perhaps someone with the full story one day will choose to share it.

 

This is something most new TSD students go through when they first start researching the art. Perhaps we should make this part of our TSD curriculum.

 

I think the finding out about the truth is a good exercise... it helps break the newbie "my instructor and my system is godlike" mentality that most beginners start with.

 

I'll try and dig out the source for you guys as right now I can't remember where I read this so don't take this as gospel. Apparantly Hwang Kee claimed Gogen Yamaguchi as a personal friend, so could he have been influenced by Goju-Ryu?

I think they were both in Manchuria at more or less the same time in the same area.

 

Got it - it was in People and Events of Taekwondo's Formative Years by Dakin Burdik.