Hello! I have been doing MDK Tae Kwon Do for several months now and I absolutely love it. I have also been researching other MA's just for the heck of it, especially Kuk Sool Won, Hapkido and Tang Soo Do. Maybe (not likely, considering I will be getting busier as college ends in two years and grad school/job kicks in) if I have time I will try to cross-train in either Tang Soo Do, Kuk Sool Won, or Hapkido. Recently, while reading an article on Hwa Rang Do's origins, I found out that in the late 50's, early 60's One of the schools in Korea was Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do and was created by the founder of the Moo Duk Kwan. The other schools at the time were Kong Soo Do and Oh Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. So, basically, my question is, is Tang Soo Do the same as Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do? They seem to have the same foundation, so how is it that they split up? Please note that I am not asking about TSD vs. TKD in general, I know that has already been debated to death. My question is very specific and relates to just the Moo Duk Kwan style of Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. Thanks in advance!
When the Korean goverment wanted to unify all the Korean arts to create what would eventually become Tae Kwon Do, two Kwans refused to join, prefering to remain free from any political influence. The entire Moo Duk Kwan was one of those Kwans. A few high ranking students however did and they created the Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. I'm not sure what elements they took from Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do though. I would like to find out. Hope that answeres your question
Ah you have started down a well warn path my friend. It is a very important path to travel too. The stories of teh Kwans and the Korean styles is a much argued thing. There are so many biases and variables to keep in mind. So, read as much as you can and come to your own conclusions. http://www.worldjidokwan.com/history/the_modern_history_of_taekwondo.html here is a decent paper to read. as with any accounting of the history of TKD and the other styles, it has its biases. Moo Duk Kwan is the name of Hwang Kee's school. That is fact, and no one would argue that. Tang Soo Do is a name used for the karate style Hwang Kee taught, yet he changed the name to Soo Bahk Do later on too. Tae Kwon Do is a much disputed name and the history of it is spotted, but one thing is certain...Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan is a decendant of Hwang Kee's Moo Duk Kwan. Originally TKD MDK taught the same Pyung Ahn Hyung As well as black belt hyung, but as time went on many of the TKD MDK school went the way of the Kukkiwon and adopted the poomse.
Hello everyone, I am a Cho Dan who studies Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, but I want to begin by disclaiming that the knowledge I share here is not necessarily the official history of the TKD Unification movement that is entirely accepted by our Kwan. As I understand our history, senior instructors who did leave the Moo Duk Kwan left because of pressures from the Korean National Government during the TKD unification movement. As mentioned earlier in the thread, the Moo Duk Kwan was one of the original schools that did not agree to unification under a Tae Kwon Do banner, because Hwang Kee's art was one of the few pieces of Korean tradition that had survived the Japanese occupation. Even to this day, we focus a lot on maintaining our identity as an art and not that of a sport, so I completely understand why he would have objected to this. In response to this decision, those in authority took measures to try and convince resistant Kwans and their members to join. Imposing higher taxes, denying passports, Hwang Kee himself was once detained for several hours over the matter. This was a heavy hit to the Moo Duk Kwan because it soon became "beneficial" for instructors and students alike to leave the Kwan to join in the unification movement. Those who left the Moo Duk Kwan were never supposed to carry the name along with them, because the only art taught through the Moo Duk Kwan was Soo Bahk Do. To clarify the point about the use of the name Tang Soo Do: the original name of the art was supposed to be "Hwa Soo Do," or "Way of the Flowering Hand," but the techniques and philosophy were a little too Kung Fu for the Korea that was just emerging from the grasp of the Japanese. The name Tang Soo, when written in Hanja (or Chinese calligraphy) could be read by Japanese as "Kara Te" or Karate. It was for the same reason that many dojangs/dojos around the U.S. use the word Karate on the front of their businesses. Without it, you may just as well be an oriental grocery store, if your art has a name that is not well known. As a matter of fact, the very first Moo Duk Kwan dojang used to have a sign in Hanja over it that read "Hwa Soo (Tang Soo) Do." But Soo Bahk Do is more than just a series of techniques, we practitioners consider it a living art. Since the Technical Advisory Comittee updates the way techniques are performed regularly, and improves upon the methods in which instructors and students are educated, those who break away from the Moo Duk Kwan will never practice Soo Bahk any longer, because Soo Bahk is constantly evolving into something greater than it was before. To my memory, I've probably performed the Ha dan mahkee (low block) alone four slightly different ways in my near-4-years time in training and I have to say that I've been happy with the end result of each "upgrade." Hope this information is either helpful or interesting to you all.
We broke away from the Moo Duk Kwan in 60's, with one of Hwang Kee's students forming his own organisation, under Hwang Kee's authorisation. Were still class as Moo Duk Kwan, but havn't adpoted the changes (such as the Soo Bahk name change and Chil Sun hyungs etc)
On the 50th anniversary of the founding of MDK, Hwang Kee invited and recognized all who have come from his lineage to put aside political differences and "be part of the family". I thought that was an act of class from a man who had shown both class and character throughout his life.
It is true that the Moo Duk Kwan openly welcomed all those organizations who had some origin with us during the 50th Anniversary. The same welcome is being extended for the 60th, this year. (More information on that at www.worldmoodukkwan.com) In response to Mr. Simpson - Hwang Kee, Kwan Jang Nim would never have forced students who didn't want to stay in the Moo Duk Kwan to do so. There is a difference between forming chapters, such as the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, and breaking away and forming whole organizations under different leadership. If your organization's founder(s) left the Moo Duk Kwan, that's plainly all that can be said: they left the Moo Duk Kwan. Please understand that being part of Moo Duk Kwan is more than just a simple argument of the name you carry or the techniques you know. There are five aspects to our Moo Do identity: history, tradition, discipline/respect, philosophy, and technique. When your founder(s) left the Moo Duk Kwan, they began a different course in their history. They may have taken on different traditions. They may carry a reflection of Moo Do discipline and respect, but somewhere the chain of command was broken, and in that instant, the discipline was no longer the same. I'll combine respect and philosophy by asking all of you: have any of you ever had a technical clinic interrupted for a half an hour so that everyone may be educated on the proper kyung ret (bow)? Some may think this is silly and a waste of time, but those who live Moo Duk Kwan understand that the display of respect between all Moo Duk Kwan Jeh Ja (literally: Jeh "brothers/sisters," Ja "child"; best described as "member of a family") is of the utmost importance, and to demonstrate it correctly helps bring everyone together. Finally, as I mentioned in my first post, our technique has evolved, and will continue to evolve, because just like the philosophy of the Midnight Blue belt*, we never claimed to be perfect, but are ultimately training toward that end, and so our technique will continue to change for the better. Perhaps we'll eventually reach a plateau with exactly how far we can develop the technique, but we will still be developing in history, tradition, discipline/respect, and philosophy. If those five aspects of your identity are not identical to those of our Kwan's Moo Do In, then you don't really identify. If anyone ever left the Moo Duk Kwan under Hwang Kee, KJN or Hwang Hyun Chul, KJN, I am certain that they were told to find their own path, but the Moo Duk Kwan name means too much to our identity to allow anyone who doesn't want to follow the same leadership to carry. This may sound like we're elitists, but the difference between elitists and the Moo Duk Kwan is that we'll always welcome you in, or for that matter, welcome you back. If you want to share in what Moo Duk Kwan truly has to offer, then locate an official Soo Bahk Do dojang, and discover it for yourself. *In regard to the philosophy of the midnight blue belt: in most Asian cultures, Korean included, black is a color reserved for holiness or perfection. We acknowledge that we are not perfect but are trying to be.
Homer, I took a look at the Tiger Gym site that's in your signature, and I saw the picture of Hwang Kee KJN, standing next to Han, KJN of Tiger Gym International. I think it's pretty cool how borders around the door say: -----Eung-kyo's Do-Jang------ Tang--------------------Korean Soo----------------------Soo Do-----------------------Bahk Moo----------------------Do Duk-------------------Association Kwan I think it was one of the first Do Jangs established after, or possibly JUST before the Moo Duk Kwan officially adopted the name Soo Bahk Do on June 30, 1960. Do you have any idea of what date that Do Jang was opened? Also, why did he leave the Moo Duk Kwan? Anywho... Just curious, has your organization or maybe your Do Jang ever met with Hedges, Sa Bom Nim, of the UK Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan or any other Soo Bahk Do students?
I never know what the signs said. I assume you read/speak Korean then? I only know we split in the 60's and becomming a independant organization in 1992. I assume it was before the official name change, or that Grandmaster Han opted to stick with Tang Soo Do.
I don't speak Hangungmal fluently. I'm actually of Filipino descent, but I can read the written Hangul, because it's actually a really easy set to read based on syllables made of consonants and vowels just like English. When you can read the syllables, however, you'll end up with words that you won't necessarily know the meaning of, unless you study a lil further. For example, the first two characters on the right side of the door say "Dae" and "Han" and together, Dae Han is what Koreans call Korea.
Hey Slavist, I was wondering how you felt about this information, considering it was originally your question. Regards, MDJK
Moo Do Jo Kyo >because Hwang Kee's art was one of the few pieces of Korean tradition that >had survived the Japanese occupation would you mind clarrifying or expanding on this please? From my understanding Hwang Kees art was originally a combination of Chinese and Okinawan arts, not Korean. The korean influence came later after he put in exhaustive study of the Muye Dobo Tongji. This book contains information on an empty hand method of fighting called Kwon Bup. The only problem is that by the study of this book and for many books an any art for that matter is that you are unable to determine how techniques are correctly carried out. You have a series of postures from which you have to try and determine how to get from one to the other and determine how the actual movements were conducted. So you lose a large portion of that art. As far as Soo Bahk is concerned, if you use these words literally rather than Soo Bahk Do then you are refering to an ancient art that died out a looong time ago, and that no one can or will be able to reproduce as there are no records of the techniques or methods used.
Actually, the original influence of Hwang Kee's art was Korean and Chinese, even before Moo Yei Dobo Tong Ji was discovered in the Korean library. Hwang Kee's first art, though without formal instruction, was Tae Kyon. As a young boy, Hwang Kee visited a neighboring township's annual festival. Forgive me but the name of the festival or place currently escapes me. I'll consult with my instructors regarding those details. There he witnessed a man defend himself from a group of 7 or 8 men, using Tae Kyon, or basically, Korean streetfighting. This was the life-altering moment for Kwan Jang Nim which first stirred his interests in the martial arts. He followed the man to his home, where he pleaded for the man to teach him Tae Kyon. He asked persistently, but was denied each and every time. To that end, Hwang Kee practiced the art on his own, by watching in secret, copying and paying close attention to each detail, training as often as possible. By the time Kwan Jang Nim had turned 21, the local community had considered him a master of Tae Kyon. This history is well known, and is actually the reason that in the Moo Duk Kwan, despite the time spent in training, no one may be promoted to Ko Dan Ja under the age of 21. Tae Kyon was considered a dirty system, with throat strikes and grabs, as well as eye gouges. Some of those techniques are included in our Gi Cho Sohn Bup (Basic Hand Techniques), i.e. Ee ji kwon soo kong kyuk, (split, two finger spear hand attack, targeting the eyes). In addition, it was from Tae Kyon that Soo Bahk Do derives the bulk of it's kicks, snappy though they once were. Martial historians may note that the original Okinawan/Japanese arts never contained spinning kicks, not even the back kick. The fact that Mr. Miaggi knew the back kick in the Karate Kid movies, as a matter of fact, was because those movies were choreographed by Pat Johnson, a Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan master, who also never joined the U.S. federation. Just an interesting side note I thought I'd throw in. You could chalk it up to geography, because, like most countries where the land is mostly mountainous, the stances are very deep. That's also why in those arts, you pick up the front foot and let it down in a heavy step to generate power in a low block for example: it's just how you moved up a steep incline. In many of the original Chinese martial arts, kicks were never done above the waist. It was usually, hand to hand or foot to foot. If you attempted to kick to the head, it probably would have been common place to get your supporting leg kicked out. I can't provide as much of a historical or geographical reference, although you might remember this was one of Bruce Lee's original problems when he studied Wing Chun. He didn't like that there were no high kicks, especially after having faced Chuck Norris after a couple of rounds. When the Moo Yei Dobo Tong Ji was discovered, the Kwon Bup methods described Soo Bahk within it's texts. Yes, I should have said "Soo Bahk Do" instead of plainly Soo Bahk, however I usually discern our Soo Bahk Do from the former, ancient Soo Bahk by spelling it "Subak." That's how I'd seen it in the modern translation done by Sang H. Kim, although I'm not too sure about that text, because Hwang Kee, KJN spent a great deal of his life trying to fully translate those texts, and he was not satisfied with the full translation even up until the day that he died. I believe it's still part of the Moo Duk Kwan's ongoing projects. There was a section of the Kwon Bup which he was satisfied with the translation, and the resulting techniques were developed into a hyung called Hwa Sun Hyung. As I mentioned, the original name of our art was going to be Hwa Soo Do, or "Way of the Flowering Hand" and Hwa Sun is translated as "Pure Flower." The hyung is taught to Moo Duk Kwan Chil (7th) Dans. This is just the largest example of where the Kwon Bup techniques are found in the art, but they bleed into many of the lower ranking techniques as well. I wouldn't call the use of Okinawan Kata so much influence as I would call it filler. The Korean society was only just emerging from the occupation, and the best way to slowly introduce the art was by using forms that the general martial arts population understood. Then he could introduce the governing concepts of the technical part of our Moo Do (such as use of hip) by modifying the executions of the techniques between the patterns. The resulting forms may have sequential origins in Okinawan kata, but ultimately, they became Korean hyung. Hope this helps.
moo_do_jo_kyo, everything has been very helpful. Before I elaborate, though, I wanted to respond to one of your challenges in earlier post. While we have not had practice interrupted for thirty minutes to teach us the proper bow, I have personally done knuckle puch-ups several times for not performing the bow correctly, so in TKD-MDK traditions are still alive and kicking. I think that my school also considers MDK a living thing. The Master who has founded the school, has made several changes to the techniques, such as the way we perform the Back Stance-straight edge block (I can't remember the name for the life of me, but there are two types-low and hugh block). Most schools, that I know of, perform the block by lifting their hands above their head, while we put the back hand under the armpit, so most of the force comes from the spin, which helps you with all other blocks. I think that what we are learning is Moo Duk Kwan at its best, both technique- and discipline-wise. I also respect Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do and don't think that they are doing something radically different. MDK-TKD, SBD, and TSD are basically the same thing done differently from what I have seen and read. We even have the same forms. Last but not least, I bought a MDK shirt from the Soo Bahk Do online mall.
How do you (everyone) perform Soo Do’s? We place the striking hand buy our head/ear, which makes sense and you can use the hips to really strike (especially low soo do)but I’ve scene people put the striking hand but there waist / under their armpit, with the other hand behind their back
