[Tang Soo Do] Korean Karate vs Tang Soo Do

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by jut1972, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. New Guy

    New Guy I am NEW.

    Irrelevant.

    ç©ºæ‰‹é“ is suppose to be the art of 'empty hand' => unarmed => lack of weapon isn't the most surprising thing.

    (Since the posts regarding weapons are on the topic of 空手é“Karate, I assume it is about 空æ‹é“.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2006
  2. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Not irrelevant at all.

    Think about it.
     
  3. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Mad Monk, Dont you get tired of dealing with the same old questions? :p

    How many people do you think you have exorsised apart from me?
     
  4. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Is this guy maybe a troll? His profile says he studies TSD under a sensei.
     
  5. Kuma Densetsu

    Kuma Densetsu New Member

    I am not racist at all, my point was that instead of Tang Soo Do translating into Tang Hand Way of the, it was Way of the Tang Hand. As in the East they speak with the object and the subject in a sentenced reversed to english.

    As for where I am getting it from, I am getting it directly from Master Sensei La Cross. I know that he knows what he's talking about, but if you were curious I could give you his credentials, not that you are likely to believe me anyways...

    4th Dan Tang Soo Do
    3rd Dan Shotokan Karate
    2nd Dan Jiu Jitsu
    2nd Dan Muai Thai
    2nd Dan American Kick Boxing
    Tai Chi and Kung Fu Master

    He has also formally trained:
    LAPD SWAT
    The US Secret Service
    The Israeli Anti-Terrorist Unit

    But you guys are probably right, he was most likely just talking out of his ass....
     
  6. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Credentials doesnt mean anything when it comes to MA history.

    I study under a 10th dan Korean GM and he claims no Japanese/Okinawan influence at all and says that all the forms and techniques are 70% chinese systems and 30% ancient korean subak. Go figure.
     
  7. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Oh yeah, but it goes with the territory.

    I dunno. Never really bothered to keep count.
     
  8. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    In the East...those mysterious Easterners...

    Right.

    Gotcha.

    I'm no grammer guru, but there's no subject and object in "Dangsudo".

    Master...Sensei...

    Master...Sensei...


    If he's the one making the statement that the punches, blocks, and kicks of Dangsudo and Taegwondo are not similar at all...then he doesn't know what he's talking about at all. Sorry.

    Fourth dan does not make you a master. That's the first belt where you are allowed to teach out of your own school.

    Further more, who was his instructor, to what Gwan does he decend from, what's his lineage?

    The rest of this has no bearing on a discussion of Korean Karate (with the possible exception of Shotokan), but I'll humor you none the less.

    Under who?

    What kind of jujutsu?

    Um...dude...bro...lemme explain something to you real fundamental.

    There are no Dan ranks in Muay Thai.

    None.


    What kind of kung fu and who was his teacher?

    So...what? Tons of other martial arts instructors have done the same thing, and a lot of them aren't that impressive.

    The Israeli Anti-Terrorist Unit...

    How generically lovely...

    Which one?

    His credentials mean nothing. This is a fallacy called an appeal to authority. Facts do not need to be backed up by a list of credentials that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. So what if somebody did a workshop for the LAPD? That doesn't mean they have a clue about history or linguistic.

    BTW, how long have you been working door? You work at a bar that hires people under the age of 21 to be bouncers?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2006
  9. Kuma Densetsu

    Kuma Densetsu New Member

    Mad monk, my point that I was trying to make was that he has traveled throught the world, he received his muai thai training in Thailand, his first black belt he earned was in Shotokan which he earned in Japan (to the best of my knowledge) I've seen all of his original certificates. He received his Kung Fu and Tai Chi training in China. My point is that with all of his credentials and over 40 years of martial arts experience [I'm sure many of your instructors have more] He knows his stuff.

    Perhaps you guys got the wrong impression of me, I am here to share knowledge with you, and to learn as well. I told you what I was told and what I believe to be true. Why would Master LaCross make this stuff up? He has no reason to, and everything that he has told me makes sense, granted I have never seen another Tang Soo Do class taught, but the way ours is taught there is a very strong chinese influence within it.

    And with that, I think I should avoid this thread, as you people seem to find some type of enjoyment, in finding everything that could be considered incorrect with what the man that I respect more then any other person has to say. Rather then just let it be.

    Kuma-


    ***Edit***

    I've been working door for a year and a half now.
     
  10. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    I'm going to reiterate what monk said just because these credentials seem way too far fetched. I also, need to know how OLD your "master sensei" is as it would take a long time to acheive the listed ranks. Also, if he teaches Dangsudo, why doesn't he call him self sensei and not sabumnim or kwanjangnim.

    Which gwan and for how long?

    there is NO SUCH THING AS JUST JIU JITSU! We need a branch listed here.

    If he actually said this, he is lying or got his "2nd Dan" from a bs school. There are no Dan grades in Muay Thai.

    As far as I know there are no grades for American Kickboxing, but find me proof and I'll admit that I'm wrong about this.

    Which lineages?

    Are you telling me this guy has trained the Mossad? C'mon, are you really buying this?

    In short, yes, he most likely was.
     
  11. Wolf

    Wolf Totalitarian Dictator

    It looks good to ma noobs, and is actually a very common practice.
     
  12. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    I'm gonna have to agree with Madmonk and KSwolf. I'm incredibly dubious of someone who claims dan grades in arts that do not grade in that fashion, someone who simply claims a dan grade in "Jiu Jitsu", which is really a vast canvas covering a whole load of styles, the same as "Tai Chi and Kung Fu Master". Which styles of TaiChi and kungfu, and from which lineage?

    As to training those special groups, again, I'm dubious.
     
  13. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    MUAY Thai, even in Thailand, does not have Dan ranks. No legitimate Muay Thai association issues dan ranks. Dan ranks are strictly a modern Japanese and Korean martial art phenomena.


    And my point being, his credentials do not necessarily entail he knows anything about history or linguistics.

    Perhaps we did. I look forward to conversing with you. Just be aware I will not pull any punches, and I believe you, or your master, to be wrong about something, I will tell you so. Unless you can PROVE me wrong, I won't take anything back.

    What you were told may very well be wrong.

    He evidently has studied CMA. He is a kung fu master after all. Maybe he's infusing your Dangsudo class with some of what he learned of CMA.

    The plain and simple fact of the matter is that Dangsudo, since its inception, has been Korean karate, largely based on Shotokan, and that Taekwondo, for the large part, evolved out of the various schools of Dangsudo and Gongsudo. If your master sensei tells you otherwise, then I would suggest you look elsewhere for research material.

    No, I don't take enjoyment in it. I'd enjoy not having to correct someone's misconceptions of KMA everytime I log into Black Belt Domain, or Bullshido, or MAP. I have not attacked your teacher's character, or his skill, he may very well be teaching you good martial technique.

    What I have done is challenged you to think critically and examine the facts, to present a cogent argument on the point. You were the one who brought your teacher into this, again, a fallacy called appeal to authority, rather than attempt to debate original material.

    But, if you would like to hide your head in the sand, and refuse to engage in rational discussion, then I am sorry for you. I would expect better of someone involved in Asian Studies, as well as the martial arts.

    Again, under age?
     
  14. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    OK, Chinese stylist here jumping in (I caught this one on a lark and can't resist)...

    I've studied two different Korean arts (TKD and dabbled in TSD), dabbled in one Chinese art (Pai' Lum) and have been studying my current Chinese art for 2 years. And, just do you know, one of my instructors received her black belt in TSD before beginning training in Kung Fu.

    No way in hell can anyone who has studied Chinese arts say that Tang Soo Do "tends to be more slow and circular and direct highly characteristic of northern shaolin and chinese martial arts". TSD looks more like TKD than it does Northern Shaolin martial arts. I've enough exposure to TSD to say that although it could potentially somewhere at some time had some chinese influence, it does not resemble any northern Chinese MA I've seen. There is more of a Chinese influence in KSW than TSD, in my opinion. It is certainly possible that your instructor is bringing in concepts he picked up from studying other arts, but that doesn't represent TSD as a whole. And judging from what I've seen of WTSDA, it looks more like other Korean arts than Chinese.

    Oh, and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with bringing in concepts from other arts to enhance the learning experience, that doesn't bug me, don't get the wrong idea. But just because someone brings in some Chinese footwork doesn't mean the art as a whole has a Chinese influence.
    To beat the dead horse some more...
    There are no dans in Muay Thai OR American Kickboxing (unless he trainined in TKD, which was my base when I did American Kickboxing, in which case he would hold rank in his base style as he fought under American Kickboxing rules). And what style of T'ai Chi and Kung Fu did he study?
     
  15. Kuma Densetsu

    Kuma Densetsu New Member

    Alright, I will admit, that I don't know as much as I would like about the martial arts. When listing off his credentials and I mentioned his Dan's in Muai Thai and American Kick Boxing, basically around my friends and I, the term Dan is synonymous with a ranking belt [not a student belt] my apologies the confusion. As for which Tai Chi and Kung Fu styles he trained under, I don't know, and Master is much to busy to be bothered by such questions at this time. As far as Jujutsu, I don't suppose that is relevant to the current topic, though when it comes to self defense teachings, we see a lot of jujutsu maneuvers.

    In closing, I do not know what the exact ranking system is for Muai Thai, but I do know that Master LaCross is certified to teach it.

    I hope that cleared up a lot of things, if I missed something I'm sure you will bring it to my attention.

    Gangrel Child, I would appreciate it if you would heed your words and try not to speak in absolutes in the future, you typically end up putting your food in your mouth, especially when you are trying to misproove someone who could very well know a lot more about the topic at hand then you. Granted I have only studied at one TSD Dojang but I have been trained by 5 instructors there, and from what I've seen the basic movements of TSD are much slower and more circular [once again characteristic of CMA (I'm sure someone will back me up here???) then TKD, which I studied for 2 years.
     
  16. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Hold on there, you said your instructor said he was 2nd Dan in Muay Thai. Not you, not your friends, your instructor. Where does the 2nd Dan come from?

    It'd be one thing if you just said "black belt in muay thai" or a "dan" in Muay Thai, but you gave a specific number. Where did you get that number from?

    When's your next training session with him?

    Ask him.

    We'll wait.

    It's relevant because you posted it. You put it out there, now we'd like to know.

    Certified by whom?

    You're telling a CMAer to shut up about CMA?

    Sorry bro, not gonna back you up. I study a form of Long Fist, and the basic movements of Dangsudo bear much less resemblance to kung fu than they do Taegwondo.

    Or did you completely miss the part where I told you that Dangsudo is just Korean Karate which then developed into Taegwondo?
     
  17. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Too busy to tell you his credentials?!? Are you serious? Duuuude... that screams "huh?!?" to me. If an instructor won't tell you at least which styles s/he studied, that's a red flag. For all any of us (or you, for that matter) know, it's an honorary rank. Anyone claiming "Master" status in a CMA ought to have the courtesy to at least tell his/her students what style it is in.

    OK, I think I'll take the word of one of my Kung fu instructors who happens to have a BB in TSD over you. I have seen the WTSDA hyungs, and they are not circular or slower, especially when compared with Chinese styles. The one steps do not resemble any real Chinese techniques, nor do the weapons forms. The local Master here claims that the Bassai form is Chinese in origin, but I'm not convinced, to be honest. Everyone I know who studies TSD is utterly amazed at the difference between TSD and my Kung Fu. And we've shared, trust me on that. So if you've compared notes with a few CMAers, please, tell me what parts of TSD they feel are "Chinese".

    So, the word of my 1st Assistant instructor who has black belts and instructor credentials in both styles versus some guy on the internet... hmmm, that's a simple choice. I don't see it. I suspect your instructor has brought other stuff in.

    I'm with Mad Monk. You're telling a CMAer with a Korean arts background to basically shut up about CMAs? Lemme explain something to you... my style incorporates bagua, chin na, longfist, seven star praying mantis, 5 animals boxing, and groundwork. I have enough of a background in the Korean arts that I could support my statements without mentioning my 1st Assistant instructor. Between her word and my own knowledge, I am quite comfy with my assertions. And oh, MM108 studies Chinese and Korean arts, and surprisingly enough, he's backing ME up, not you.

    There is nothing I see in any WTSDA form, technique, or teaching methodology which remotely resembles a CMA. Period. As I said above, I suspect your instructor is teaching you guys something above and beyond basic TSD due to his apparently numerous BBs and "Master" qualifications.

    Until you can show me (or tell me) which form resembles Chinese style or which techniques you do which have a Chinese basis, and what style of Kung Fu and T'ai Chi your instructor studied, I don't think you have much basis to say that "TSD is more akin to Chinese arts than Korean arts". But please, if you can tell me what Chinese styles you've studied, I'll be more than happy to engage in a dialogue with you about it.

    Final Edit for this post... though not representative of all styles of TSD, I find it quite interesting that the WTSDA Student Handbook does not mention much about the Chinese influence in the art. Odd, huh? Seems to me that anyone claiming to trace any art back 1400 years is in for a bit of trouble.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2006
  18. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Oh, and Kuma, would this be the website of your school?

    http://www.alpenakarate.com/home2.html

    It's interesting, to say the least. I especially like the fact he refers to what he's teaching you as "Karate". He has "Tang Soo Do" buried somewhere on the webpage. And "Yang Style T'ai Chi"? Hmmm. Very interesting. Definitely want to know who ranked him in Kung Fu and T'ai Chi and in what system now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2006
  19. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    I hold a 3rd Dan in Karate, and a 2nd Dan in WTF TKD. I've also studied Wing Chun and Tai Chi. And from what I've seen of Tang Soo Do, having had a few trial sessions at a local club, it is a lot closer in practice to the Karate and TKD that I have learned then to either of the contrasting styles of CMA that I have learned.
     
  20. Yossarian

    Yossarian Valued Member

    I come from a WTSDA lineage and I have studied some CMA(Taiji and Bagua) and can tell you what gangrell and madmonk are saying is true. TSD is more like Karate(Shotokan) and TKD than CMA, check out some Shotokan and Kung fu vids on you tube. If you are from a Moo Duk Kwan lineage you will study the ChillSung/Yuk ro forms which are defenately more Chinese looking.

    The thing you must remember is that most TSD orgs will tell you a BS story about how the art is 2000 years old and comes from Kung Fu. This is mainly because of bad feeling from the Japanese occupation of Korea and their unwillingness to recognise Karate as an influence.

    This doesnt mean its any worse of an art. I have also noticed a wide veriety of teaching styles in TSD over the years so I can imagine its not impossable for a more Chinese flavoured version of TSD to exsist, perhaps thats what you are learning. The history is still the same though, TSD comes from Karate.

    Dont get annoyed by guys here correcting your take on TSD history, it happened to us all at one point.
     

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