Taking punches to the jaw

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Putrid, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Quote from Taijiquan:Through the Western gate.

    Page 7: "Here was a slight man in his fifties who could take a jackhammer punch to the jaw from 250lbs student, make the force from that punch seemingly disappear into his body, and calmly comment on the student's technique".

    The teacher in question is William C C Chen who has a reputation as a fighter.Whilst a lot of boxers can take a punch on the jaw I doubt if many would be prepared to stand there and be smacked in the face from someone who is far larger.It would seem to be a method of testing the students technique.I have trained with a Chinese teacher who allowed me to strike his body with full power so he could see how my striking was developing but I have never come across anyone willing to be hit in the face or head.

    Has anyone witnessed William C C Chen taking these strikes?
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    First I have heard of it - there is much to be a little wary of though. First it is a student doing the punching, and i know few that would be willing to drop their master. Second he is prepared for the punch.

    I can take a massive shot if I know it is coming; the one that KO's you is the one you don't see.

    Of course Chen could just have a great chin though....
     
  3. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    Chen used to fight in full contact matches so he was used to taking hits,and as you say,he might have a good jaw.The acid test is if he can train his students to replicate his results.
     
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I have no doubts at all with regards to Chen as a fighter - his reputation is stellar. These type of "carnival tricks" sometimes detract from his genuine gifts as a combative master though.
     
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If you know the technique, you can roll with a punch and take much less damage from it than a straight shot. I think the combination of rolling with the punch, being prepared for it, and having a student hit you who is probably not thinking of dropping their teacher with one punch is probably how he pulled it off.
     
  6. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I smell poo.
     
  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Of course not - your average boxer is much, much smarter than that and gets out of the way of the punch. That's why they practice after all.
     
  8. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Punches still get through though, hence rolling with them to lessen the damage. Better than nothing.
     
  9. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    Yeah, they can't. He sent his son Max around the country to learn from all the top san shou instructor Like Jason Yee, Cung Lee, etc. Then when he returned they sent him out to compete and supposedly continue the great Tai Chi fighter tradition.
     
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Meh... Kung Fu is replete with this sort of stuff...vaudeville. Total vaudeville.

    Chinese culture is chock full of myth building of this type (it tends to rival most major religions they've fine tuned it so much). I've seen it at countless demonstrations here in Hong Kong and in China... the bricks on the head trick, the spear to the throat trick, the chopsticks against the trachea trick... lol... the list goes on and on... Barnum and Bailey would be proud.

    For all this superhuman ability why is it that none of it ever ends up with genuine documentation? It's always from the anals of an ancient master had a cousin who saw someones half step sister who knew the shop keeper that ploughed the field for the cousin thrice removed who took a shot from a person that was ___insert fantastically different size/weight/ability____ . It's not repeatable for whatever reason... it's what psuedoscience is to actual proper, verifiable, testable science. Fantasyland nonsense. It satisfies the need deep within us all to believe in something like that... the need in all of us... it's a spiritual/emotional/ego driven lottery win really. But it's absolutely ridiculous.

    In short. Absolute pap that the Kung Fu community at large laps up like a hungry street mongrel to a pile of sick on a Sunday morning sidewalk in front of the pub.

    Total BS.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  11. slickoneuk

    slickoneuk Member Supporter

    Kin ell Slip, who tweaked your mellons today! Lol
     
  12. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

    Best. Misspelling. Ever.
     
  13. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I don't think that's misspelt.
     
  14. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

    ^ "Deliberate omission" doesn't quite have the same ring, you have to admit. :p
     
  15. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    well, I know that when you're holding the shield practicing kicks with a partner if you relax your whole body and ground the kick into the floor you can redirect the force back into their body and it upsets their balance.... it's kinda funny but you shouldn't do it during drills. anyway, maybe it's like that.
     
  16. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I agree, but there's a difference between learning how to roll with a punch and standing there inviting someone to punch you in the jaw. One of these two courses of action is intelligent, the other is dumb showmanship.

    Showmanship because there's no reason to do it other than to show off, dumb because I hope everyone's aware of how Houdini died.
     
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Houdini died from appendicitis,which was not related to the beating he took (nor to gaining weight due to practicing nothing but a slow-mo hand form:D)

    William was known for the ability to stand and casually take hard body shots from folks-(not when in the ring,of course)- including one of my old stablemates whose dad was studying w/William, but I've never heard of him willingly taking head shots.Ken Cohen related he once kicked William in the teeth w/a steel toed boot and was shocked that William was ok but that was during sparring-(demonstrating once and for all that even acknowledged masters get hit)- so even tho' Ken felt he had made very good contact I could fathom William riding it.

    Putrid-that quote isn't at all clear-was this William taking it on purpose or during sparring? You say "It would seem to be a method of testing the students technique" but based on what you've put up here that seems purely an extrapolation on your part.

    Look,you guys know I have had no problem on calling BS myself on people in lineages I belong to,but aside from the having vehicles run over him thing William doesn't have a history of doing things which would make some people scoff. I'm hesitant to start decrying something about one of the few real deal guys when we have no in depth info of any descriptive import.

    Where's Jack Webb when we need him?- " Just the facts,ma'am,just routine."
     
  18. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    I have nothing but respect for William Chen as a martial artist but was more interested if anyone who had trained with him had actually witnessed him performing this act.According to the book it was during training and the author also punched a guy who was in his sixties or seventies around twenty times on the jaw and he also suffered no ill effects.You can read the first chapter here.

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Taijiquan-Through-Western-Rick-Barrett/dp/1583941398/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317828171&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Taijiquan: Through the Western Gate (9781583941393): Rick Barrett: Books[/ame]
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Again, the feat is more demonstrative than practical. "Farmer" Burns could do a "hangmans drop", but in and of itself it was just a party piece and no student had any ability to duplicate it.

    In my uni days when me and a friend had a skinful we used to take turns hitting each other as a "macho" demo in bars. When you are ready and prepared you can take a hell of a hard shot. This explains everything to me about this "ability" -just another in a long line of "chi demos" that is nothing of the sort

    Like I said, I have nothing but respect for Chen, but this "skill" is....well bunk to be honest
     
  20. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I never realized broadening one's experience w/top trainers implied that one was impotent prior to that training. Does this mean the people who went to study w/William who were already experienced in other things needed to study w/him to be able to actually do anything? Or is this logic reserved only for TC practitioners going to train outside the TC realm?

    Odd how one of his father's students won the 1979 Taiwan tourney (not a PH tourney) but William couldn't teach his son to fight w/out outside help. What about William's other students who have competed over the years-or is it simply an inability for Wm. to impart things to his progeny?

    Soooo-you know for a fact that Max had no ability prior to training outside his father's realm and that he simply had to be sent to train with others to be able to fight?
     

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