I've been wondering about the takedowns and throws in MMA. It seems to me, that Mixed Martial Artists only ever go for a takedown/throw when they're in a clinch. However, Karate and Kung Fu styles seem to practice striking an opponent and using a takedown/throw as a finishing move. Personally, I would imagine that the latter form would be quite effective for Mixed Martial Artists to practice and perform. So, why don't they?
A number of takedowns are set up with strikes. The thing is, from a distance the best takedowns are attacks to the leg (single-leg, double-leg); however, it's usually easier to sprawl (basic takedown defense) than to execute said takedown. So, as someone looking for a takedown, if the opponent sprawls of me, I've now ended up face-down on the mat with all their weight on me. The the opportunities for a safer takedown generally occur in the clinch. You fail a foot sweep, you're still standing up with your opponent under your control. Good leg-takedown specialists: Georges St-Pierre, Sean Sherk. They set up their takedowns with strikes very well, or use the opponent's strikes as an opportunity to take them down. However, yes, a more successful takedown is generally done while in the clinch. You can still set it up with strikes, but now you've already got your hands on the opponent and can feel when his balance is off.
check out lyoto machida. shotokan stylist+some bjj IIRC. he uses a lot of takedowns by rushing up and using his front leg to unbalance the opponent, causing him to fall down.
It's an interesting question of definition though since the range from which you are going to take any shot (for the most part) is also the range from which you may clinch.
From "Mastering Jujitsu", by Renzo Gracie and John Danaher: "The free-movement phase is where all MMA matches and many street fights begin, with both fighters on their feet, with no grip on each other." "Once body contact and grip is established, the movement of one fighter is constrained by the other. They are no longer free to move about as they please, but must now take into account the movement, grip, and body position of each other so that they can decide how to move and act. This second phase of combat is referred to as the clinch" It's only partly a question of range. Basically you can shoot a double without the need to establish a clinch possition, although a good fighter will still be close enough to touch (read: "hit") his opponent. For, say, a hip throw or ankle pick, however, you need to establish a dominant clinch possition first. The method of clinching also differs a bit in an MMA fight from a grappling-only match in that in a grappling (wrestling, judo, whatever) match, a "clinch" may consist of something like wrist control or a post on the opponent's shoulder or head. These end-of-the-arm movments leave the clincher open to punches and other strikes in an MMA match. Most MMA clinching is initiated a bit closer, from about elbow's length for a collar tie, and even closer for a bodylock. In MMA, you usually have to punch your way into the clinch as well, or move in after your opponent misses a strike.
Amber - the clinch reduces the ability of your opponent to strike you while you are attempting a throw/takedown. Plus what callsignfuzzy said about being in a better position in clinch if a throw isn't successful. Plus from what I've seen (and practiced) in many TMA like Karate, KF, JJJ...the choreographed, strike, block, enter for throw/takedown doesn't evolve to more resistant training where your opponent doesn't just stand there and allow you to throw them. I guess in 'theory' you could be right, but in practice TMA'ers get owned when they try to pull off crap like that on a half decent MMA guy.
I actually agree with you Lily though from what I've seen it has less to do with the technique and a lot more to do with the intensity, or lack thereof many TMA schools practice. Any technique practiced poorly works poorly.
There are plenty of guys who use dirty boxing, knees and elbows in the clinch either to do damage or set up throws.
The best takedown is to knock the other guy out. With that said, there is a combat principle that goes something like, "always stun or unbalance before attempting a takedown." Judo tends to apply the unbalance before takedown, and karate tends to apply the stun before takedown. Both are generally considered good. This same principle applies in MMA, no exceptions there. If you are trying to apply takedowns learned from karate, for example, in MMA, then you need to stun before takedown... the question is, are you actually STUNNING in TRAINING when you practice your takedowns. You absolutely need to at least do this at least enough times to do it well... if you are striking and pulling your punches and your training partner is not stunned, why are you even attempting a takedown... go back to the principle, stun before attempting takedown. You better bet that Judoka are UNBALANCING before takedown ALL the time in training.
Only if they're clowns. You should be controlling their posture before you knee, so that if they try to sweep you (which they won't, because their posture is broken and their legs are back) they'll just fall over. Not to mention that a straight line is always faster than a circle. Anyway, back to the OP, a clinch is what happens when somebody goes to throw, and the other person defends. Also, as the fight goes on, people become tired, and so their ability to explosively enter and throw is diminished, so they're more inclined to build from a clinch. However, another aspect is that most MMA fighters' take down game is wrestling based, and that's how it's done in wrestling. People like Karo Parisyan with a strong Judo background do perform a lot more arm throws etc.
The danger of getting thrown off a knee is always present and should be accounted for with kuzushi and the proper set up, but it is no guarantee that you won't get thrown on your upper back.
Both are going to have the same set up. If someone goes to knee you and you try to throw/sweep them without controlling the leg that's off the ground, you probably don't have to worry about the difference between a sweep and a throw because you are going to get your clock cleaned regardless.
