Taijiquan Treatise

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by runcai, Jul 15, 2015.

  1. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    The following is an English translation of the Taijiquan Treatise (Taijiquan Lun) attributed to Wang Zongyue by Barabra Davis:

    http://uwch-4.humanities.washington.edu/~WG/~188/188 Texts/Taijiquan Treatise.pdf

    There is a group in Sydney working on it, and I think any serious student of Taijiquan should try to understand it. Maybe we can discuss it in the forum. For example we also discussed Qi sink to the Dan Tien, etc.
     
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I hadn't read that for a while. Reading it today I was struck by two things.

    Firstly, how much it resonates with the Tao Te Ching. It had previously crossed my mind during one of the interminable 'Qi threads' that understanding the Tao Te Ching is propbably the best way of understanding the idea of Qi, except that the book is itself fairly cryptic. Really needs an accompanying commentary to fully understand it - or else spend a lifetime pondering it.

    Secondly, as I read it I kept picturing myself doing pushing hands. For some reason when I used to read this treatise I always pictured myself doing the form, but really it's pushing hands which helps you really appreciate the points that are being made. It's strange how your mind works. (Or strange how my mind works, at any rate!)
     
  3. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Taijiquan follows the Yi-Jing binary system while the Dao De Jing is based on the decimal system. The concept of Wuji before Taiji did not appear until the 1700s.
     
  4. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Sorry, the idea of Wuji is from Zhou Dunyi (1017–1073), and I think Taijiquan Treatise was appeared in the 1700s.
     
  5. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    That link did not work for me, do you have another?
     
  6. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    The Tao Te Ching says something along the lines of:

    "From the one arises the two and from the two arises the ten thousand things."

    That's it in a nutshell. From Tao you get Yin and Yang, and from Yin and Yang you get energy, matter, 'Qi', the whole shooting match.

    Would you mind explaining where decimal comes into things, because I don't follow that bit at all.

    Cheers.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I thought the Dao De Jing was more of a binary and base 8 kind of deal because of the I Ching's influence?
     
  8. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Taijiquan Treatise

    Taijiquan Lun

    Attributed to Wang Zongyue

    English Translation by Barbara Davis

    in Taijiquan Classic published by North Atlantic Books Berkeley, California, 2004

    (Page 77)

    1. Taiji is born from wuji; it is the mother of yin and yang. If it moves, it divides; if it is at
    rest, it unites. Not overpassing, not falling short. Let bend, then extend. (My)
    opponent is hard, I am soft; this is called "yielding.a I go along with, [my] opponent
    goes against; this is called "sticking.O If [he] moves qUickly, respond quickly. If [he]
    moves slowly, follow slowly.
    Though the transformations have a myriad of varieties, they are of one nature.
    Through experience of the touch, one can gradually comprehend and understand jin.
    Through understanding jin one can reach divine-like clarity. However, one cannot just
    suddenly understand it thoroughly without applying effort for a long time.
    2. Empty, lively, head-top jin; qi sinks to the dantian; neither incline nor lean; suddenly
    hidden, suddenly appearing. If [the opponent's] left is heavy, then [mine] is empty; if
    [his] right is heavy, then [mine] disappears. If one looks upward, it seems all the taller;
    if one looks downward, it seems all the deeper. If one advances, it is even further
    away; if one retreats, it is even closer. A feather cannot be added, a fly cannot alight.
    My opponent does not know me, I alone know him. A great hero faces no enemy. In a
    word it comes to this.
    3. These techniques [of the martial arts] have many schools. Though [their] postures
    are different, overall [they] do not go beyond the strong bullying the weak, the slow
    yielding to the fast, those with strength beating on those without strength, and the slow
    hand yielding to the quick hand. These are all from pre-heavenly ability, and are not
    connected to the effort of study or from achievement.

    Examine these words: "four liang deflects one thousand jin." Clearly, it is not force that
    conquers [an opponent]. When one sees an old man able to hold off a crowd [of
    attackers], how is it that [he] could do so with quickness?
    Stand like an even level; move like a cart's wheel. If one sinks to one side, then one
    [can] follow; if one is double-weighted, then one is stagnant. Whenever one sees
    those who have practiced for many years who cannot handle neutralizing and are
    controlled by the opponent, it is simply that they have not yet apprehended the fault of
    double-weightedness. In desiring to avoid this fault, one must know yin and yang. To
    stick is to yield, to yield is to stick; yin does not separate from yang; yang does not
    separate from yin; yin and yang complete each other. Only then has one understood
    jin. After one understands jin, the more practice, the more skill.
    4. Silently treasure up knowledge and ponder, [then one can] gradually arrive at what is
    the heart's desire. The foundation is in "giving up the self to follow others." Many
    make the error of "giving up the near to seek the far; or what is called "being off by a
    hair's breadth is to miss by a thousand miles." Those who study must do it in detail.
    Every phrase of this treatise is to the point, without a superfluous word. Without innate
    intelligence it cannot be understood. Our founding teacher was not willing to recklessly
    pass it on, not only because selecting people [was difficult], but he also feared that his
    effort would be wasted.
     
  9. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Chapter 42 said Dao give birth to one, one give birth to two, two give birth to three, and three give birth to all things.

    Yi Jing start with Taiji (2^0), Yin Yang (2^1), 4 elements (2^2), Bagua (2^3), 16, 32, 64, etc.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's not decimal.
     
  11. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    The idea of 4 elements in Yi Jing is similar to the classical elements of Greek and India, etc. That is about all is known for the time being. But that is sort of 3 thousands or more years before Dao De Jing was written.
     
  12. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    In any case, Dao De Jing is not binary.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't know all that much about it, but I thought it went in a system of factors like 2 > 4 > 8 > 16 > 32 > 64?
     
  14. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's what I was thinking of. (I missed a bit out though!)
     
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    1800s.
     
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's decimal! :D
     

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