Taijiquan: Bullet or gun?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Dan Bian, May 22, 2012.

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  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    dup .....
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Here are some more information for 1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament. Please notice an important fact that

    "All winers came from the Chinese Zhongyang Guoshuguan 中央國術館. They all "cross trained".

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/08/16/1929-hangzhou-leitai-tournament/

    Many issues that we are discussing today were discussed back then.

    - 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功,没有发人于丈外的场面
    You don't see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

    - 太极打法毫无建树,四量难拨千斤
    The Taiji principle didn't work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

    - 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
    The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

    - 要学打擂台的拳术
    After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.

    - 但这次比赛南派选手普遍不敌北方拳师,南拳选手第一轮全部败北,有的刚交手就被打败
    All competators from the southern styles lost in this tournament.

    - 最后比赛的最优胜者都是中央国术馆的学生
    All winers came from the Chinese Zhongyang Guoshuguan. They all "cross trained".

    - 第七名山东韩庆堂
    The long fist GM Han Chin-Tang won the 7th place in that tournament.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Some people also call it "northern Shaolin". But I don't think it has anything to do with the Shaolin temple. It contains 5 brenches, Zha, Wha, Hon, Tan, and Pao. The following are the last 4 generations of the longfist system from GM Han Ching-Tan.

    Tan Tui: by GM Han Chin-Tang

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4"]ten roads tan tui by Han Ching-Tan åè·¯æ½*è…¿-韓慶å*‚ - YouTube[/ame]

    Wha Chuan: by master Li Mo-Ching (GM Han Chin-Tang's student)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPcXE6pCgY4"]Grandmaster Li, Mao Ching - Taizu chang quan - YouTube[/ame]

    Pao Chuan: by YKW (master Li Mo-Ching's student)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aag0hbiTmjs"]my pao chuan - YouTube[/ame]

    My senior longfist brother (master Li Mo-Ching's student) Nelson Tsou Yen Kai's students.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK0sjvVfgFc"]Northern Shaolin Long Fist Compilation - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    A few paragraphs from the book "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts":

    --------------

    National competitions occurred in Nanking in 1928, in Shanghai and Hangchou in 1929, and again in Nanking in 1933. These tournaments drew participants from all parts of China. the fighters usually were senior students of famed masters, who had won provincial contests. Chu Kuo-fu, a hsing-i boxer, won first place in Nanking in 1928 by the unusual method of election. There were so many major injuries that the tournament was stopped and the participants voted for the winner. Tsao Yan-hai won first place in Shanghai in 1929 but could do no better than fourth place in Nanking in the same year. Liu Kao-sheng, nearly sixty but big and strong, entered the Nanking tournament. in training he hung a heavy stone around his neck and swung it. He could slap bricks and shatter them. Some feared that he might kill someone. liu was too slow, however, and was eliminated by Tsao Yan-hai, who managed to get only a fourth place in this tournament.

    Many provinces conducted annual boxing contests, Honan having at least seven and Szechwan three during the Republic. the arrangement of these tournaments was fairly standard. there were displays and competitions with and without weapons (the arms competitions were performed with wooden weapons). In the boxing, three rounds of three minutes each constituted a match. The fighting was free but for restrictions against attacks to the eyes, throat, and groin (fist attacks against the eyes and throat were within the rules, but finger attacks were not). Grappling was permitted. An elaborate point system decided the winner of a round (a fighter knocked down twice in a round lost it) and the referee was the sole arbiter. A chief judge provided him assistance if requested. If a fighter won the first two rounds, no third round was fought, which ruling would seem to penalize the single-punch knockout artist who plods along, awaiting his chance. This type of fight meant that a fighter had to be aggressive or he would be outpointed irrespective of his punching ability. Draws advanced both fighters to the next round.

    In general in the tournaments, northern fighters used their legs more than southern fighters. The northerners were inclined to move offensively with their feet closer together and to use longer punches, whereas the southerners favored a deep defensive stance with legs further apart, employing short punches and the scissors tactic (a locking-block) effectively. More often than not, northern boxers won over their southern antagonists. Ch'en P'an-ling said once that this was evident in the fact that boxers face south, not north, in acknowledgment of the north's power.

    --------------

    Some interesting stuff to go along with YKW's posts.
     
  5. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    In the "1928 Nanjing" tournament, the winners were determined by vote again:

    1 - Chu Kuo Fu: Baguazhang and Xingyiquan
    2 - Chu Kuo Lu: Baguazhang and Xingyiquan
    3 - Chu Kuo Chen: Baguazhang and Xingyiquan
    4 - Fu Chen Sung - Baguazhang
    5 - Liu Hung Chieh - Baguazhang and Xingyiquan (sidenote: Bruce Frantzis' teacher)
    6 - Chu Gui Ting - Xingyiquan
    7 - Ku Yu Zhang - Northern Shaolin
    8 - Wang Shao Chou - Northern Shaolin & Cha Quan
    9 - Li Hsin Wu - Northern Shaolin, Tan Tui, Ziranmen
    10 - Keng Te Hai - Tai Sheng Pek Kwar Monkey Style
    11 - Ma Cheng Hsin - Seven Star Praying Mantis

    Again, no Taiji guys, but the other 'major' internal arts seem to have done well, plus internal art Ziranmen. Maybe we should all give up Taiji and start on Baguazhang?? :p
     
  6. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    I want to learn Bagua but no one in my area teaches it.
     
  7. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Haven't you got a DVD yet?
     
  8. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned


    I've examined bagua dvds. You can learn a lot of stuff from dvds. I don't think bagua is one of them!
     
  9. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I don't think you can learn any martial art from a dvd. They can have a use as a 'memory-jogger', but to actually learn anything you need a teacher.
     
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I occasionally benefit from looking at DVDs - not to learn - but to spot elements that I maybe don't catch in a form, look at an angle (this is limited as it is 2-d), some aspects of alignment and positioning in an application - 2 man attack applications where the alignment and positioning are critical in reading the setup opportunity and subsequent timing of counter; nothing more than that i.e. a DVD can help a very small amount as a point of reference - on something that you already have a reasonably objective handle on.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Different people use different set up. To me, that's the most interest part of MA. In the following short clip, it's very interest to see how to use a hook punch to set up a turn hook/back kick.

    http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2049/2706201092556new.gif
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  12. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Buy 1, get 3 - kindof like stealing. It really brings out the 'Art' in MA.

    Developing drills to exploit/adapt these opportunities is indeed a big part of whats its about - but its damm hard work. Integral to this is (IMHO) 'going with the flow' - but only when the setup is correct.

    This kindof stuff is great, but you can't rely on it.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  13. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    Its obvious the guys aren't compliant, if you know internal you can see what he is doing, he is explaining it as he is doing it, just not in English, if it was just mechanics everyone would be able to do it, he is not doing 20 move techniques like you would see in compliant videos.

    The participants in the videos are applying pressure or resistance, not just sticking a arm out and waiting for the guy to do all his movements.

    If people can't tell the difference between resisting dummies and not resisting, I guess you need more experience.


    Cheers
     
  14. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned


    Well if you would read the books, then you would have a better idea of what internal is related to, then your question would be based more on what part of internal you have a question on using some kind of reference point.

    I think some people think the video is just mechanics, but there is more going on than that, otherwise everyone would be able to do it.


    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2012
  15. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This forum is TaiChi, that vid is some offshoot of Aikido, maybe Aunkai, but certainly JMA and not CMA. Given that the "books" you quote are all "Classic" CMA, how do you know what is going on in the vid?


    would you care to expand on what is "going on" there? - oh of course we need to "read the books" - CMA to understand JMA?

    Perhaps if you were to give the slightest hint of what your actual experience is, then we might take you a tad more seriously.

    You really are spouting some right old waffle with no apparrent purpose, direction or benefit to anyone - including yourself.
     
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    to be like you I guess?

    Do you have any experience at all in anything other than internet-fu?
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    A bench press of 500lbs is just mechanics - can anyone do that?

    Once again your inability to actually say anything reveals the extent of your knowledge - zippo
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Your entire premise is based on "read the books", yet youhave no answer for those of us that HAVE and still don't buy what you are selling.

    Sorry but no matter how you polish your crap it is still a turd
     
  19. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    Well you might have to learn to listen better, with a closed mind listening does not do much good.



    Cheers
     
  20. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It sounds like you are trying to talk to a child, rather than grown men.

    As you have just returned from a ban I suggest leaving out the silly comments.
     
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