Taijiquan: Bullet or gun?

Yeah I remember Roadtoad's shoe-do. I think I even found an online copy of the old Blackbelt magazine article that said to take off your shoe and use it as a weapon against a knife. I had forgotten about that whole thing, but it did go against advice given to my instructor from his instructor back in the early 1970s when asked what to do in a street fight (they both had many real world fights). His instructor said, "wear shoes". Taking off your shoes was not an option.

On the other hand, the context of shoe-do was important. If we take the dojo time machine back, maybe if we wore those six inch high stiletto boots (as I imagine the deadly ladies of MAP do every Friday night after training :saz: -- hey I said if we take the dojo time machine... so if you believe in time machines... don't I get a free pass to rewrite history? :evil: )

Okay, regarding Robinhood's postings... he never answered any of my questions directly about his training methods. I gave him two different occasions to do so and he blew off both. I think he has many hours of training with himself

 

I have already read those pages.Not too sure what you are getting at with internal and external.Wang has also written a small book on qigong that shows methods of aligning the three dan tians.He dosen't mention that in his tai chi book and neither does Sun Lutang in his tai chi book as it has nothing to do with fighting.Its a method of spiritual development that is a by product of tai chi training,although it can also be cultivated by Taoist meditation.That is my understanding of internal/external and everything else is purely physical,albeit on an extremely subtle level.

There might be a higher level of tai chi but I have yet to meet anyone who can demonstrate it.

 

You may recall Izumizu's evasive qualities in answering questions - kind-of deja-vu with Robin. I haven't had any straight answers, neither has YKW.

Evasion is a fundamental quality of weaponary based MA - except when employing shoe-do with or without Ninja stilettos (borrowed from Frodo). It seems evasion is fundamental to Troll-do as well.

Back on topic: A lot of bosh gets talked about in Taichi and Aikido sometimes regarding 'internal' aspects and ki/chi. My experience with Taichi, is that the internal training is more explicit, but it is not separate from 'external' MA i.e. no amount of standing still and meditating is going to save you from oncoming blows.

Its a bit difficult to tackle TaichiChuan in objective terms as training varies a lot between styles and teachers. However, in my Cheng Tin Hung lineage style (sometimes called 'Wudang' but I believe he only referred to Taichichuan), there is a boxing style called 'Running Thunder Hands' where the 1st punch is a setup for the 2nd knockout punch - very similar to Jack Dempsey's drop step punch.

This requires developing a constant 2 stage boxing style that initiates from the waist and spirals from ones centre outwards i.e. it is internally generated and orchestrated. Combined with stepping and evasion these drills are very demanding. They have been put to effect in the old South east pugialistic championships of south-east asia by Cheng Tin Hung's students, and sometimes won against heavy external stylists e.g. Dan Docherty winning in 1980.

 

Here this guy is using internal application


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJUC3NM0l4Y&feature=endscreen&NR=1"]Stage Hino sensei Paris 11/2009 - YouTube[/ame]


Cheers

 

Fixed that for you.

I would question what is presented in that video.

 

Robinhood, on what grounds do you base this guy is using internal application?

Have you trained with Hino Sensei?

Have you interacted personally with someone that has trained with Hino Sensei?

Are you basing it only on what you see on YouTube videos and the likes?

Are you basing it on any of Hino Sensei's writings or DVDs?

What is it that makes you believe this is legitimate internal application?

 

personal attack removed, its right there and you can't see it !

 

Ahh I see you are back again

So, about that lineage of yours....what is it?

 

That is a guy doing a demo and even Stevie wonder can see the mechanics and methods he is using to perform said demo.

 

But before, you said that these things don't come across in video. Now you say it's obvious. Which is it?

And before you even start with "well you have to have the experience to see it", it must be noted that you've so far been completely unable or unwilling to provide any reason for anyone to believe you have the experience to comment in the first place.

 

enough already

That's funny.... I could easily say the same thing to you about the Terms of Service (TOS) that you agreed to when you signed up at MAP. Directly calling someone an idiot because they don't agree with your observation isn't on at MAP. Please read and abide the TOS or don't bother posting.

In fact after going through and reading quite a few of your posts in this thread alone I suggest you reconsider your entire attitude while posting. Your arrogant and petty swipes at people through out your posts are really silly. Grow up or go somewhere else. Keep up this immature behavior and you'll soon find yourself banned. Fact.

Slip

 

Robinhood,

If you understand what is meant by 'internal' as opposed to 'external' in the context of martial arts then it would be more helpful to try to explain it in words than to post video clips or to refer people to books.

Alternatively, you could always quote a passage from one of the books you mentioned and add a few words of your own to expand on the point.

Simply repeating that you 'get it' and so everyone else should automatically 'get it' too isn't helpful or contructive in the slightest.

 

Im waiting in eager anticipation with baited breath...

Johnno, someone should give you a job as a diplomat - you always get your points across in a completely civilised and polite manner!

 

I wish!

But I'm trying to be more diplomatic these days, I really am. Flaming people is more my automatic response, but to be honest it never achieves anything. Trying to reach some kind of understanding is more contructive. :Angel:

 

Hino is doing almost exactly what we did in Systema.I would say its a bit different to most martial arts but certainly not internal.

Back in the thirties several boxers challenged Chinese masters to matches.They all lost and in their reports of their fights claimed to have received what felt like an electric shock.Kencihi Sawai also reported this phenomenon after his fight with Wang Xiangzhai.Not too sure how it is done but if anything is internal its this type of application.

 

Ugh... I'm always extremely skeptical of this type of match. The Chinese are infamous for yammering on and on about these types of matches. Their national pride seems to ride on it. Yet just like the much vaunted rootop matches or KF master matches here in HK - the few bits of existing proof show them to be absolutely dire.

Anyone that has any sort of actual proof of these supposed match ups feel free to post up. If these are the best that IMA's have to show as proof of whatever... then it really doesn't look that good for them at all.

 

I think it depends on how you define "match".It seems that if the other guy got knocked over he was considered as beaten.The 1954 Wu/White Crane match was dire and if they were anything like that its nothing to get excited about.You have to remember that at the time Rocky Marciano was world champion and these two guys who were supposed to be top performers in the east were fighting like a couple of girls in a schoolyard.

 

Let's examine the official TCMA tournament record here. My Chinese wrestling teaher told me that there were no "Taiji" guys competed in the 1933, the 5th National Kuo Shu Tournament (also called the "All China Full Contact Tournament"). My Chinese wrestling teaher Chang Tung Sheng won the 1st place in that tournament.

Shuai Jiao Master Chang Tung Sheng (1908–1986) won the heavy weight division of the 1933 Central Kuoshu Institute lei tai competition and earned the martial nickname “Flying Butterfly

The top 10 winners of the 1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament also had no "Taiji" guys in it. What does that imply? My Longfist teacher's teacher Han Qingtang won the 7th place in that tournament.

1. Wang Ziqing (skilled at shaolin & shuai jiao)
2. Zhu Guolu (xingyi and boxing)
3. Zhang Dianqing (fanzi quan, shuai jiao, yiquan)
4. Cao Yanhai (originally studied Mizong quan. Learnt Tongbei from Ma Yingtu, pigua from Guo Changsheng, later studied under Sun Lutang)
5. Hu Fengshan (originally studied xingyi under Tang Shilin., later became Sun Lutang’s disciple)
6. Ma Chengzhi (originally shaolin,later studied xingyi under Sun Lutang)
7. Han Qingtang (praying mantis, taizu long fist, especially expert at qin’na)
8. Wan Changsheng (learnt Cha quan from Ma Jinbiao)
9. Zhu Zhenglin (learnt Tai Yi Men under Yang Mingzhai)
10. Zhang Xiaocai (learnt Cha Quan under Ma Jinbiao)
11. Gao Zuolin
12. Yue Xia (bagua under Zhao Weixian)
13. Zhao Daoxin (yiquan)
14. Li Qinglan
15. Shang Zhenshan

 

This is quite illuminating from a historical perspective. Could you elaborate on these tournaments, and how these evolved into the contemporary (I)CMA of today, as you seem to know something about the subject matter.

John, what do you mean by "longfist"? - excuse my ignorance.

 

From the 1929 tournament, I would infer that the winners were sources from IMA/Nejia and more "external" styles and crafts like QiNa, Shia Jiao and some others that I dont recognise.

TCC was for wimpo hippies even back then?