Taijiquan: Bullet or gun?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Dan Bian, May 22, 2012.

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  1. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Hi guys,
    I've had some experience in Karate and (Japanese) Jujutsu. This thread is not to take away from these arts, but instead to try and look at why comparatively few Taijiquan practitioners are able to develop realistic fighting applications.

    I call what I do "Taijiquan", but to be frank, it's a mongrel derivative. As I stated above, my initial martial exposure came from Japanese styles of Karate and Jujutsu. However, most likely due to my young age at the time, I was never really able to 'get' how to appy the techniques. It all just seemed like a bit of a jumble. A dozen or so kicks, various punch combinations, blocks, throws etc. I had these 'bullets' that could hurt an opponent, but my delivery system wasn't effective.

    When I started learning Taiji, I gave up all my other practice and focused everything into my new practice. It's been about 8 or so years now, and having been fortunate enough to train with a few excellent Taiji instructors, I've been able to learn how Taiji is applied combatively.

    What I'm also finding is that Taiji practice is giving me greater insight into how the techniques I learnt before could be applied.

    It's been said before that Taiji can be a great supplement to other martial practice.
    Add to that the fact that a number of the 'great' taiji masters had background in other martial practice before taking up taiji (Yang Luchan, Sun Lutang, Wu ChuanYou to name a couple) - this leads me to ask, is Taijiquan better suited as a delivery system for other martial practice, rather than as a 'standalone' art?
     
  2. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    I went by a totally differnt route to you, Dan Bian. From Taiji to other MA's (shaolin kung fu, judo) then back to Taiji. Second time around I think I can appreciate Taiji as a martial art much better, because wider experience gives me more sense of 'context'.

    My take on your question is that Taiji in general is not an effective 'delivery system' because a it seems to me that only a minority of people study it as a martial art. Most people only seem to want to do it for health reasons, or because it seems trendy, or they think it complements their 'new age' lifestyle. And there is nothing wrong with doing it purely for health reasons, IMO.

    As far as I can see, Taiji practised as a genuine martial art can be effective on it's own. I see no need to supplement it, unless you want to add a 'ground game', since there is nothing in Taiji that I know of which covers groundwork. But in every other respect it seems to stand up on it's own.

    The big caveat I'd add to what I just said is that I think it takes longer to become martially effective in Taiji than any other MA I know of.
     
  3. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    I can't think of anyone that was high level that did not do a few other styles first. I would look at Tai_chi as the engine, and other arts as the cars without engines, when you combine them you can go places. One without the other and you go nowhere.


    Cheers
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you spend too much time and money in your foundation, you may run out of your time and money to finish the construction of your house. You may end with a house without roof.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  5. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    The better the foundation, the more potential for the house, better support more floors etc.

    If you are in a hurry, you throw up a tent, but it is only temporary and won't last long.



    Cheers
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  6. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    tai chi makes your legs really, really strong and teaches you how to move when you're struggling. oh, and you get magic powers. that's why tai chi is cooler than karate. the end.
     
  7. embra

    embra Valued Member

    That was not a problem for Genghis Khan. Speed is important a) to not give the enemy time to organise, b) to organise yourself when under duress and c) to be adaptive to change. Genghis was a master in all 3 aspects.
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In heavy rainning, a tent can give you better protection than a concret building without roof. The difference between building construction and MA development is, after you have put up foundation for your building, you cannot change it. In MA development, you will have the rest of your life time to develop your fundation, but your combat testing time is very small.

    If you are thrown in jail, you will have all the time that you need to train your standing posture in your 8 x 12 feet prison cell.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  9. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member


    A concrete foundation won't hold up to much either if it's not formed around a steel scaffold, and do you know how steel is made? It's dug up, rough and ugly from the dirt and purified in the crucible until the impurities are gone and you're left with solid metal.

    Everyone starts with a tent. Not everyone's foundation will hold up in a storm.
     
  10. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned


    How about the houses of the three little pigs, that that make more sense?,

    I don't know why analogies are taken out of context.

    Cheers
     
  11. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    A boxer can spar after six months training whereas most tai chi people still have trouble with sparring after ten years of training.It might indicate the training methodology in tai chi is outdated and unfit for purpose.
     
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Bingo. If your system doesn't provide basic fighting skills in a short time then it's worthless. This was my main complaint with TC. I realised very quickly was that the internals are what should be taught first.

    The Bear.
     
  13. jer45

    jer45 Valued Member

    Taiji is notorious for being on the slow side in comparison to a lot of other arts in terms of developing power/mechanics and fighting ability. There's a famous proverb in Chinese(I forget the exact wording) that goes something like, "Chen style takes 10 years to become proficient and Xingyi takes 1 year to accomplish killing ability". While the time frames may not be that drawn out, but it illustrates the length of time involved in attaining prowess with Taiji, especially Chen style.

    I have met a couple of people who'd been doing Yang style for 2-3 years intensively(20+ hours a week) and had prior experience in Sanda who were more than capable in a spar, but I've yet to come across someone from a pure Taiji background who was proficient in the ring....

    Dunno, I've always had admiration for Taiji having done some Chen in the past, but I haven't seen anything that's really impressed me thus far(real combat-wise).
     
  14. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    So, it's one thing to throw out an analogy, but another thing entirely to try and respond to it with one? As I see it, Kurtka Jerker tried to respond with his opinion in the style and language with which you posted. That's not taking it out of context, it's just responding in kind. His analogy was less an attempt to discredit yours and more an attempt to share his own philosophy, as I read it.
     
  15. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    uh, I train tai chi and I can fight pretty well. If you learn the movements and are comfortable when you're fighting you'll find yourself using tai chi more and more. it doesn't take 10 years. that's as stupid as when chinese say white people can't learn qigong.
     
  16. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Internal Neigung + Evasion are what are most immediately useful - and transferable to other systems - but folk wont always recognise it in you. There are only a handful of teachers teaching Sanshou as part of TCC in a martial way in the UK.

    The applications are the most interesting aspect of TCC (for me), but they ain't simple or quick to drill into your head, and most folk struggle with them, even folk who have a lot of experience.

    Sad reality of TCC: most folk are as martial as a marshmallow. Also a lot of TCC Folk do not use evasion - no idea why - its blooming obvious to me, but requires immense efforts to cultivate. There is still a lot to be gained in TCC, but I think its best to x-train in other MA.

    Another whinge: TCC folk don't fold into joint locking applications e.g. as if shutting a door, hence the techniques's attack/absorption of the central nervous system is minimal - when it could be a whole lot more.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  17. Putrid

    Putrid Moved on

    The amount of Chinese who can use tai chi for fighting is very small,almost on the same level as westerners.For most people it remains a recreational pastime that has some health benefits.That is fine as long as your main aim isn't to be a better fighter.
     
  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The numbers in China were probably higher pre-1949/PRC.
     
  19. jer45

    jer45 Valued Member



    well actually, I never said it takes 10 years. I said it was just a saying to exemplify....




    .....Nah.....you know what..you're right.
     
  20. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    nope, my aim is to be a proficient fighter. I think most people who practice tai chi who are in our age group (younger than dead) get great exercise benefits (my legs are like freakin tree trunks from form practice) and you learn how to wrestle.
     
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