I would give my high teeth to see recorded footage of the old-style contests where all the internal arts competed against eachother in a real tournament. Do you think such footage exists...? (And I dont' mean the sucky 195x white crane match)
It's fiction. There is no evidence that Dong and Yang ever met. None that soldiers learned Xingyi, they learned to use swords. None tha guards learned either. You need to read more.
No need to be rude mate You need to practise manners more. :Angel: Besides, many sites say that Xing-Yi was taught to troops so it's not as though he pulled it out of thin air is it?
If all these people are masters of internal martial artists the answer is simple: the first person to attack will lose, regardless of their style. The fight would go for days if neither person attacked, though as soon as one attacked the fight would be over in a few seconds. If they are not true masters but wanna-be stylists - which the description makes them sound like they are [wu shu] - then the actual fight could go for ages and I wouldn't care who one.
There's no "evidence" the soldiers learnt to use the swords either. But there's a lot of written and drawn evidence that soldiers held swords. Maybe that's all they did...hold swords to look pretty. You need to realise that written history does not document everything. Also not everything is translated into English. Uranium was discovered in 1789. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#History So "evidence" only existed starting 1789. According to your style of reasoning, Uranium did not exist before 1789. That Dong and Yang were friends and rivals is a well accepted fact in China. That Soldiers were trained in HsingI is also common knowledge. Common knowledge has a way of not being recorded. Why record the obvious? My goodness, there's also no evidence to prove that Yang Lu Chuan is Chinese. I mean everyone assumed so, it was common knowledge, but no one has seen his birth certificate. Does that mean he's not Chinese? How appropriate is it for one who doesn't live in China to declare what is and isn't true in Chinese history ?
Look, I realize that the truth is not pretty but continuing these nonsense stories does nothing to promote the living art that baguazhang is. Sog, you're argument is specious and without merit. Please site your sources re: Xingyi and the Army and Dong/Yang meeting. Are you certain of the lack of documentation of Yang's birth? Actually it is recorded in his home village of Guangping. The Yang family is still living you realize and they are of the Han nationality. There are training manuals extant that show troop training. The government of the various dynastys, in fact, kept very accurate records. That's what governments do. In that I suggested that you read more (something you seem loathe to do if it upsets your fantasies), try Douglas Wiles Lost Tai-Chi Classics From the Late Ching Dynasty.
That Dong and Yang met is like, my goodness common knowledge, maybe not among Americans who only READ about Internal arts. Let's for an instance ignore the "hearsay", and just focus on the logic. Like dude, both Dong and Yang were in the SAME palace grounds on a regular basis. You are insisting that they have never met given that both had reputations that preceeded them ? That XingYi is the standard style adopted by the military is also common knowledge. The point I brought up about Yang's race and birth documents is that YOU haven't seen it but accepted it as truth. As far as I am concerned YOU have seen the evidence with your eyes yet you accept it. After all it is you who insist on providing solid evidence over common knowledge. For the record, I believe Yang Lu Chuan to be of Chinese race and birth based on my acceptance of a commonly known fact.
Dude, XingYi is also famous for it's sword technique, a COMMONLY known fact in China ....perhaps it is you who should read more and dismiss others less. Unless you know more than Tim Cartmell: http://www.shenwu.com/hsingi.htm "....Xing Yi Quan is the oldest of the 'internal' martial arts, and the only internal art proven effective on the battlefield." And if you dispute the encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsing_Yi ".....Hsing Yi claims to specialize in deceptively soft, linear, low attacks and quick yet solid footwork appropriate for the battlefield and the military" And a Colonel in the Chinese army eevn wrote a book on Army XingYi : http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/drilling/books.html " ......The Xingyi Quan Of The Chinese Army (Volume 2.)- Rifle & Bayonet Training and Applications (including a section on traditional xingyi spear techniques)."
SC the funny thing is in Tai Chi's Ancestors (pretty much reprinting some ancient docs) it talks about how a persons martial (always mistakenly write that as marital... hmmm) abilities are not worth alot on the field of combat... that is in an army but quite effective singularly...
"That Dong and Yang met is like, my goodness common knowledge, maybe not among Americans who only READ about Internal arts." Fifteen years of baguazhang not long enough for you? It's "common knowlege" that Dong and Guo Yunshen met but that is apocryphal as well. Perhaps we can ask Yang Jun if his ancestor ever met Dong? "Dude, XingYi is also famous for it's sword technique, a COMMONLY known fact in China ....perhaps it is you who should read more and dismiss others less." Look if you study IMA you know the time required just to develop thebasic body method. Some soldiers may have done this training on their off hours but basically they are fodder. It's much easier and faster than to teach basic slash and stab along with group tactics. "....Xing Yi Quan is the oldest of the 'internal' martial arts, and the only internal art proven effective on the battlefield." Well I bow to my senior here but that statement does not say that soldiers were taught Xingyi on masse, just that it is effective. What the army is taught may well be based on Xingyi but without the shenfa...
I think it would be logical to assume that while the average soldier would not have had the time and expense of training to master Hsing-Yi, they would have been taught enough to use the some effective empty-hand/sword techniques. I don't wee why it's hard to believe Hsing-Yi was taught to soldiers, after all it is effective and has many "finishing" attacks... and the basics can be taught in a relatively short mount of time compared to Tai-Chi. Seems logical.
First let me apologize for sounding so flippant. I will assume most of you are experienced internal martial art practitioners. With that assuption you understand how much training goes into just learning how to use the body method. Even in todays military much more time and effort goes into learning how to use weapons effectively. Comparily little training is given to empty hand fighting. Compound that with learning IMA's shenfa...it doesn't make sense. Could you show someone the five force vectors (wuxing) for effective combat with or without weapons? Sure. But for my money the key ingredient that would make an internal martial art is missing.
A whole article on xing yi in the military: http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/militaryxingyi.html Merry Christmas
"With that assuption you understand how much training goes into just learning how to use the body method. Even in todays military much more time and effort goes into learning how to use weapons effectively. Comparily little training is given to empty hand fighting." That is true now but not in the past. Close quarters combat relies on fists as much as steel. In medievel close quarters combat it was just as common to have your head smashed in than it was to be stabbed. Whatever kills the quickest. You will also find that swords were expensive to make and most were realitively in ineffective against a number of soldiers armed with spears and halberds (the preferred choice for soldiers). Xing Yi spear or pole form would be perfect for that. As for "obtaining" internal power you forget that back then everybody learnt martial arts. Villages were likely to be attacked at any moment so in order to have the best defence it was necessary to teach women and children martial arts as well. Today, most people learn martial arts in between school, work, etc. Back then it was nearly all a warrior ever did. Get up, train, go to sleep. It may take us over ten years of "hard" training to "get it" but they had an incentive, learn how to do it or die. It would not be unimaginable for me to think that there were large numbers of experienced warriors around that could use internal power effectively.
But think about it. Internal training when you live in a fishing/farming village makes sense, but if you're a conscript in the army you have to learn the most effective ways, quickly. When you're put in the army, you're not encouraged to do qigong and simple drills for a few years to get used to it. In the olden days, you may have to fight at any time (e.g. a week after you're taken from your family at 15yo to be cannon fodder in the service of the Emperor). Therefore, the training would consist of you and hundreds of others, in neat rows, learning the most basic cut/thrust techniques. That way you're less likely to stab yourself or the guy next to you in the leg when you're on the battlefield. If internal MA were used, it would be after they had a solid grounding in EMA, and would probably come from the top down (from the proven warriors who didn't have to worry about mere survival, and had some time to train/compete with top stylists).
