Taiji in San Shou

I found this website while looking for San Shou clips last night.

http://www.chutaichi.com/tournamentvideos.shtml

It's a series of San Shou/Lei Tai bouts, featuring fighters with backgrounds in Taijiquan.

I'm not terribly familiar with Taiji, so I'll save my assessment for after some of the more experienced Taiji practicioners have had a chance to make comments.

 

I can't see much Tai Chi in there (but what do I know ) so likewise...

 

Kind of average San Shou to say the least.

 

I didn't se the vids yet.This is probably just going to devolve into another "is TC!/is not TC!" thread. So I will say C.K. Chu has been known and respected for the last 3 decades or so as the TC place in NYC (along w/Wm.C.C. Chen's place) to go for martial teaching and practice.This has been the word amongst fighters in NYC (like boxers).Chu's TC is legit,and if he has impressed experienced ringfighters,among others over the years,seems like a good recommendation.
Since this will probably go the way of Liokault's thread of him sparring, before the screaming starts I will say as I did previously-While you can see someone very obviously doing something against TC dynamics,how many people on this forum can tell just by looking if someone is doing the "under the skin" stuff?And I'm not talking yi or ch'i.I mean openings/closings,tissue expansion/contraction,having p'eng,etc. While a person could be doing something in an extremely relaxed manner,w/good mechanics,it doesn't mean it's TC mechanics.
The only people I've met who could see the unobvious small parts of things in dynamics were good.Very,very,good.
But I would guess if these were Chu's students they must be doing some stuff TCwise,even if it's true,as Liokault says,that it's mediocre ringfighting.I

 

If I were in NYC, I would study with this guy... He is now a family student of GSC.

http://www.nytaichi.com/contents.htm

 

Oh yeah, by the way, is that Tai Chi??? he he he.

 

First off, I want to point out that the other thread was not 'my' thread. I did not start it nor did I post vids of me on it.

I only watched a few bits of the posted fights here. I can indeed see some 'tai chi' in them, for example (going from memory, it was 2 hours ago that I saw them) he pulls his opponent into his void and 'yields' leaving his opponent on the floor at his feet.

Sadly the main thing that he does is overwhelm his opposition with massive aggression. This makes it hard to see anything else.

Its 'ok' san shou. Nothing more nothing less.

 

Sorry,L.That thread just got so long and argumentative that I didn't go back and read it all again,I thought you had posted the bullshido vid link of you sparring(which you got fried for).Machts nichts.I didn't see your vids either as it takes a reeally long time for me to download.I did watch Wu vs. Chen,tho',had to.
Massive aggresion.I recall reading writings of one of the Yangs(,Ban-hou probably),which said if you have more power and skill than the opponent just crush them,no need for yielding and such.(ala Hsing-I).Might have been in Wile's "Yang Family Secret Transmissions".
TCCstudent,did I miss C.K.Chu on that website you posted?I didn't see him anywhere.(It did seem to not have been updated since '04).I've known about CGS for a long time,if I had lived in Boston I would have been there.

 

El, the site I posted is not CK Chu's (no relation to the Chu's in Boston), it is the site for H Won Gim - http://www.nytaichi.com/hwgim.htm

From what I understand, he is now a family student of GSC.

 

AFAIK he always has been. The Chu's are fascinating the two sons and the old man are very different in their teaching. And they are not above the odd argument or two in the school

I have an ex student who moved to US to work who has been going to them for the last 5 years. Fong gives one thing, then wanders of, and then Gin Soon gets up and changes it. He says it is great fun and in fact keeps you with an open mind.

 

Cor blimey mate! what have I done to deserve three replies.

 

I dont know what happened.... I deleted 2 of them. At times, this website is very slow trying to post and I guess I got stuck in a loop or something...

 

"If you ever get to the US, you should come by for a visit, or have you ever already been?"

I am hoping to get over to visit Bob Boyd sometime in the future and that is not too far in US terms from Boston so I will try to meet up with John Lenthal my old student who lives in Manchester (US one) and do a visit. I understand they are very traditional in attitude though and they can be a bit awkward with someone who just turns up. So I will make sure I pave the way first

 

Also I am sure the wudangers would just love to see Fongs (Vincent Chu's) energy work clips http://www.gstaichi.org/english/videoClips.php also here is a link to the NY guy doing some DPH and energy work. http://www.nytaichi.com/pushhand.htm

 

Are the throws you see the Tai Chi guys using taken from tai Chi?

 

This one should raise a lot of blood pressure too http://www.imperialtaichi.com/whatisit.htm

I think someone earlier was enquiring about Imperial Tai-Chi.

 

There are some videos here of Tai Chi applications (several of them are throws/takedowns) being practiced at a school that puts people up for San Shou competition :-

http://www.renaissancetaichichuan.com/MediaFighting.htm

 

Cullion - as this thread is about san shou, thankyou for posting some interesting stuff, I liked the freestyle push hands clip best - not fancy, but fairly genuine imo that's my kind of push hands I'll have to look at the applications again when I'm less tired and post again - if the thread stays open long enough!!
:Angel:

 

Please stay on topic. This thread is about san shou.

 

As far as I concerned just about every reply on this thread has been off top, so I provided some Tai-Chi for comparison. The enquiry was about Tai-Chi and san-shou. Modern sports san-shou has nothing to do with tai-chi it is wu-shu, as below :-

San Shou is the official full contact fighting sport of modern Wushu which is rapidly growing in popularity both in the US and abroad. As an integral part of most Wushu competitions, San Shou has been an important event at the World Wushu Championships since its inception in 1991. Presently San Shou competitions are held in over 75 countries worldwide. Recently San Shou has also become a professional sport in America.
The word "San Shou" also spelled "Sanda" translates as "unbound hand" and refers to free fighting where the rules are designed to most accurately simulate actual combat. San Shou matches are fought on a raised platform called the "Lei Tai". Historically, the Lei Tai dates back centuries in China where challenge matches were fought both bare handed and also with weapons with no rules. These matches often resulted in death or serious injury. At the National Chinese tournament in Nanking in 1928, the fights on the Lei Tai were so brutal that the final 12 contestants were not permitted to fight for fear of killing off some of the great masters of the time. So changes were needed!

Modern San Shou developed into a sport about the same time as modern Wushu during the 1960's by the Chinese Government. In order to define a standard kung fu fighting style, the great masters from all over China were given the task of organizing the huge heritage of Chinese martial arts in to a system of rules in which different styles could complete. Protective equipment was also added to further reduce the risk of serious injury.

The rules of San Shou allow for a wide array of full contact punching, kicking, takedowns and throws derived from the traditional application of Chinese martial arts. Finishing holds (chokes, arm locks etc.) have been excluded from the rules which forces the fight to continue at a fast pace. San Shou addresses the three ranges of fighting-- kicking, punching and grappling which adds great realism to the sport. A fighter can win by a knockout or by points. Points are also awarded for the techniques according to effectiveness. In a tournament, you fight for 2 rounds of 2 minutes each, plus a third round in case the first 2 score even. Forcing the opponent off of the platform is also a major technique of San Shou. It is a mistake to think of San Shou as just Kick Boxing because the strategies of San Shou are much more complex.

There is a now a saying is China: San Shou shi Wushu de Jinghua-- "San Shou is the quintessence of Wushu."

Tai-Chi san-shou is completely different, it is a *form* that was originated by Yang Lu Chan and finalised by Yang Jian Hou and largely lost after Yang Cheng Fu as it never became part of the public teaching :-

Yang Style Taiji Sanshou 88 Sparring Form

The 88 movement Yang Style Taijiquan two person traditional sparring routine is the bridge between push hands and Tai Chi free sparring. The sequence is long and graceful, with an emphasis on correct positioning and sensitive listening. For many Tai Chi players it represents the cream of the art in terms of forms. It is extremely rare to find instruction in this form in modern times.

It originated as a way of progressing your form into a contact situation, the only part of it commonly taught now is the 4 corners or da-lu (big pull).

You have to learn two forms an A and a B form as the two have to interact. The process being that as knowledge and familiarity develop it becomes more syncopated, faster and more free form, as you get more confident and are able to let go of force and strength, a bit like Jazz

If you are interested in it I have DVD of it showing the early (slow) development stage of it plus clips of other forms from the second generation. Search ebay for art of energetics and you will find it, the demonstration one not the training one.

Again Tai-Chi has nothing to do with guys in gloves and helmets *bashing* each other. That is something else.