my 2 cents Hi all this has certainly been an interesting debate The way I see things is that taijiquan does contain yin and yang, hard and soft and is there to be used appropriately as the practitioner sees fit given a situation, which can have unlimited permutaions and variables, so you must practice and learn both. The principles of yin and yang appear in many/all aspects of life and existance and is not just exclusive to taijiquan. You can apply the teachings of the tao to many activities - the mindset is what gives us the benefit. In your general approach be balanced. Don't be too yin, and dont be too yang. both are equally valid and important. On the subject of fighting/combat in my experience taiji players can err on the side of being idealistic in the approach. By that I mean too much emphasis on waiting to be attacked/yielding etc. dont get me wrong in principal this is good but it is the ideal, its all well and good when you are training and have the distance and timing to pull off applications, in this way. When we need to translate the art into real life confrontation, ideals go out the window I'm afraid ,so when someone (and possibly their mate(s)) closes in on us, we cannot wait for their attack but must go on the offensive. If I feel threatened in any way on the very first instance I want to get in first- end of story- try yielding when you've been backed up into a confined area with nowhere to go. I dont see anything wrong with useing the yang aspects of taiji fighting first when the situation calls for it. Where does it say that yin must always come before yang? They are one, and we must be this way also - ready to be yin or yang at any given moment. If that means getting in first and finishing things quickly then so be it. Its better than being beat up or worse. This is how I see taijiquan - the combat aspect. And I also very much enjoy the health and spirtual side, each has its place, and I think sometimes the bounderies become slightly blurred for people, which I suppose is quite natural as we are all different and see things through our own interpretations. Some people will pull to one side others to the other side. However IMHO we should all be gravitating toward the middle path, the balanced centre, so we don't stray too far from any path which we may need to step onto at any given time. I would love to be able to say that one day I could reach such a level that I will have the luxury of not hurting my opponents(if I am unfortunate enough to have any) like YLC was said to have reached, but for most of us that's just wishfull thinking. So guys lets all try to get on to this middle path together and enjoy the wonderfull journey :love: :love: Thats enough waffling from me folks George P.S Syd I thought you posts were right on the mark
I agree that yielding is an ideal and probably only applicable to a single attacker. If face with a group you will have to 'get mean' and maybe initiate something. It is about reading the energy of the situation and dealing with it. If that means you need to attack and kick some butt, then so be it. Hopefully we'd be able to get away safely without the need for violence, but that's not always possible.
I think the most important thing to remember is that taiji isn't magic. It won't give you everything you need, you can merely use it as a tool for learning about yourself (which is where all the real wisdom is inherently contained). Looking to taiji (or anything) is searching for the answers in the external world which has never proven that effective. Ultimately, we're individuals. We often seek things, like taiji, as a common way to bond and all become the exact same thing. If this worked there wouldn't be so many differences in opinion over what real taiji is. Be an individual! Be creative. This is how taiji and other things got greated in the first place. If anyone tells you this is the only right way, challenge them. People can become very arrogant when they think they understand something fully. As bruce lee said "facts are just where the investigation ceases." And as alan watts said he would say, when self-proclaimed masters would tell him that he should be their student, "Who was buddha's teacher?"
you are right VR It is about reading energy and intent and trying to become one unified energy with your opponent. Putting your energy into the gaps of their concioussness. Following them, sticking, redirecting its all part of the great art that we practice. But there are other parts too that we shouldn't overlook. If i have that luxury of catching someones timing and yielding etc i would its just that there are also parts of taijiquan that can be utilized when this is not possible, sometimes someone will be so close to you or so fast this can be nigh on impossible. All you can do is respond with an attack of your own, you can do this by discharching your energy (faijin) in strikes to their weak areas and here's the beauty, you can aim this to where he/she is empty/yin. So you can still try to unify the energy between you rather than clashing ie yang v yang. In my opinion this is an important part of taijiquan that is often not that well emphasized, you could use qi disruption techniques(another area that is not always brought into play) to their atacking areas if you can before you full out attack. Like we agreed the response is all down to the permutation. And we wont have time to be thinking about what to do but just doing whats best for us instinctively - reacting subconciously. Thats why I think it is important to try and train in as many ways that are possible within taichi - as you can never plan what might be called for. If you can stay relaxed (sung) while accomplishing all this then you truly are doing taijiquan my friend.
Yeah I know mate, I was just trying to get certain things across that I felt would add my perspective to the debate that raged last night. As things seemed to be going the way of "what we do is really taiji, and your approach is wrong" etc. For me it's all good baby I think I made my point phew!
I second that. Hey folks, looks like we're finally talking about Taijiquan rather than some aggressive macho gobshite. I must also say - the attempts I keep coming across here to separate the concept of Dao (Tao) from Taijiquan are utter garbage. Is it perhaps that statements like "A good soldier is not violent, a good fighter is not angry" "Yield and overcome" "The softest thing in the world will overcome the hardest thing" and "Those who use violence do not die a peaceful death" don't fit in with this concept of an aggressive "fighting art"? We can all pick our facts to suit our agenda's but then debate and discussion become pointless... Only the ego needs to know everything and be right all the time. I had the great privilege to meet one of Tian Zhaolin's sons during this summer (Tian Zhaolin learnt from Yang Jianhou, son of Yang Luchan - so a direct lineage connection) he was a charming and gentle person, but a formidable martial artist also. He affirmed much of what I have been taught. He also politely declined all invitations to demonstrate fajing and the more aggressive aspects of Taiji. He was very tolerant of the crassness of some of the young males who just wanted to know how to 'kick butt'. What he did demonstrate was push hands (the backbone of Taiji martial training imo) against a western master. The western guy went for a big push and Mr Tian simply absorbed it then yielded sending the other guy to the floor - pure gold. He did this twice in succession. There was no ego involved whatsoever. The small frame (YLC's style) he demonstrated was mind boggling. It showed what second-rate crap much of the modern "fighting" forms of Taiji actually are... I have also seen another style purporting to be YLC's Old frame style which was totally different (quite laughable in comparison). There is a huge amount of conflicting stuff in the Taijiquan world. I certainly don't know all the answers, but I do know Taiji's strength is in it's yielding nature not in being aggressive. If you want to be aggressive in a similar way to Taijiquan way not try Ninpo Taijutsu? But don't call that Taijiquan, cause it aint. Nuff said for now N
Isnt it funny that those who speak of the ego seem to have the biggest problem with it... VR youre passing on the thougt thing to me... In taiji are we supposed to contract when they expand and expand when they contract... ie if they attack we "retreat" and if they "retreat" we attack... thus keeping close and reading there energy/moves... thus we are talking of similar things...
"Taiji's strength is in it's yielding nature not in being aggressive" And yet by all accounts certain members of the Yang family were said to be "bellicose by nature" Personally I don't think taiji is as yielding as some other arts - bagua for example always seemed softer to me. While yielding and adapting are certainly a big part of taiji, there seems to be much more emphasis on peng jing or fa jing - or is that all a modern addition?
I dislike the traditional way of teaching, If I ever start teaching Taiji (or any other MA) I will include fighting training from day #1 and then do that parelell with form practice. And no I dont mean simply push hands then, I mean Pauchui forms and combat drills and so on. Anyway the form practice is to some extents fighting training even tho I disagree strongly with those claiming you could do form only and push hands and then go and fight someone.. good luck with that is all I can say..
Taiji, the symbol reflecting a prime tenet of Taoism as it does does not reflect a 'versus' mentality in any way. Yin does not oppose yang. They merely dynamically interact.
yep, just depends on who has the greater skill as to who wins. still the interaction between opposing forces.
