tai chi's flaw

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by gt3, Nov 29, 2004.

  1. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    The guys clearly fruity ... futility trying to reason with those who lack it.
     
  2. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Nah, I'm a traveller who makes his own path instead of following roadsigns. Much more fun, and much wider knowledge that way.
     
  3. gt3

    gt3 Member

    That's fine if thats what you want. Everyone's on their own path, we all think we're doing the right thing and we are. Everything is perfect the way it is.

    Meditate on your own faults not the faults of other's. But again i go back to my quote of "don't make claims and you'll be fine". Theres lots of similar quotes such as "better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it" or my favorite "the man who finds happiness in something is better than the man who knows it"

    I strive to let everyone and everything be my guide in this world. For if i was to label someone superficially as ignorant i'd subsequently ignore anything they might have to offer.

    There's a story about a man who takes his horse through the forrest and is greeted by a lowly gnome. The gnome warns the man that the bridge ahead is unstable, but the man judges the gnome and is deaf to his guideance and then rides off only to collapse the bridge and fall to his death."
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2004
  4. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Hilarious ... how to lack credibility in three easy steps.

    Amen!
     
  5. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    TeJitsuDo... The point is if you were an engineer with that attitude, all your bridges and buildings would fall down. If you were a computer programmer with that attitude, all your programs would crash.

    What makes you think it's so different in this situation?

    Word of advice - someone who lived to 80 years old and practiced IMA every day of their lives probably have some useful things to say that you, at 18 years old, should pay attention to. Even if they're dead.
     
  6. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Then WHY are we argueing?!?! :confused:

    (Breaks open a crate of beer and passes bottles around)

    Drink up y'all!! :D
     
  7. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Im not an engineer. Im not a computer programmer.
    And the day i start hearing dead people talk to me, is the day i have myself sectioned. :eek:
     
  8. gt3

    gt3 Member

    TeJitsuDo, most of your knowledge came from others. We're all here to share with eachother things we can't figure out for ourselves. Elephants can hear rain from miles away, but they're not born with this ability, their elders taught them these techniques.
     
  9. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Is that a comment on my ears?? :cry:

    Well, I'm bailing now... I've stated my opinions. I've neither said they're right or wrong, just my opinions. Not fussed if you agree, disagree or arnt fussed yourself. G'dnight.

    (Wanders away, muttering about getting involved in threads like these...) :rolleyes:
     
  10. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Dnt - dnt - dnt - another one bites the dust!

















    Dnt - dnt - dnt - another one bites the dust!






























    :D
     
  11. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Hmmm No egoism there then Syd....
    N :cool:
     
  12. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Only one thing to add.... Don't assume I'm an 'arm waving hippy' I took an elbow strike in the throat today training in Taiji. I wasn't badly hurt because I yielded I also train in Ninpo Taijutsu. Don't assume - just understand that 'fighting' and practising self-defence are different things. I thought that was a fairly simple point. Of course I was wrong. I apologise. Silly me.
    My teacher said this:
    "You cannot appeal to a level of consciousness that does not yet exist"
    You obviously know all there is to know about taijiquan, far be it from me to dare question that...
    So I won't try. (Thanks Boss)
    Night night boys and girls
    N :love:
     
  13. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    It's called a joke ... I'm not one of these people that claims to have no ego and be humourless ... I've said that already. A little ego is a good thing. :)

    As to the last thing you said ... uh huh, buh bye.
     
  14. gt3

    gt3 Member

    contributes some related lyrics too

    Bad Religion (New America)

    do you know the cost of future misery?
    have you lost your sense of sustainability?
    we are just a step away
    from realizing what we strive to be
    but we've got to break out
    from this insulated blind and lame senility
    wake up the new america
    wo-oh!
    transcend the mass hysteria
    wo-oh!
    change is the thing you're wary of
    wo-oh!
    we need a new america
    wo-oh!
    laurels, human triumph,
    bestowments from the past
    victories don't mean a thing
    if they don't last
    we are just marching toward extinction
    with blinders on our eyes
    jeopardizing everything
    we've learned and come to realize
    you call that wise?
    open your eyes america
    wo-oh!
    see through the lies they tell to us
    wo-oh!
    confront the fears that worry us
    wo-oh!
    we need a new america
    wo-oh!
    we don't have to be afraid to re-invent
    we've got to start to build,
    progress, and implement
    for when we take our fill,
    and never pay the price
    we only build ourselves a fleeting,
    false paradise
    you can live in staunch denial
    and mark me as your enemy
    but I'm just a voice among the throng
    who want a brighter destiny
    they say with me
    we are the new america
    wo-oh!
    this is the new america?
    wo-oh
     
  15. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Syd has it spot on here and so does NZRic... Syd you say it soooo much better than I and in the face of such narrow mindedness (no matter what the bio says)...

    taiji butterfly... if you took an elbow in taijiquan then you are practicing it martially... fighting in self defence is still fighting... fighting offensively or in defence is still fighting... thats like saying having sex with someone other than your wife/husband/partner is cheating but just getting oral sex isnt... Also the point is that taijiquan is not about peace or not fighting... it is first and foremost a martial art all about fighting with great health benefits... it also helps to balance oneself as I am learning...

    tejitsudo... boy you really are open minded as it says in your bio huh... Syd and NZRic are right full stop... they now alot more in regards to taijiquan than you it would appear who self admittedly practices primarily in the external arts... read listen and learn...
     
  16. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I have a long reply to the classical/lineage/masters points but I have to go work so you'll just have to wait folks.
    Syd, your agenda is absolutely clear to me. I bow to you humbly.

    duh, that's my point... BUT if you don't differentiate your motives for application it changes your energy in the long-term (see Tao Te Ching - the underpinning philosophy of all Taoist arts - which Taijiquan IS) More on this later....

    Hey, it worked for Bill Clinton...
    and (semi)seroiusly Taoist bedroom arts retain the yang while gathering the yin... "relax don't do it.... when you wanna come!" lol

    And please lay off Tejitsudo, he may be young, but he is highly skilled, genuine and sincere. He is not serving his ego, just loses his cool now and then. Don't we all? Or is that too much of a 'yield' to admit?? lol

    Here we go....
    N :rolleyes:
     
  17. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    wow! I last looked at this thread when it was 3 pages and thought only one or two posts would get added before I got to spout my stuff. Bit of a shock to see 2 pages of posts waiting for me.

    Some points:
    I like what taiji butterfly said regarding having compassion for your partner. (I also realise that there are times when you need to get mean, but that's only when life and loved ones are on the line). That way you stay on the right side of the legal profession.

    Fighting or self defense?
    Definitely a blurred border between the two. I'd say that it's more of a mind set. Self-defense is as it says defensive. It yields/controls/reacts to the incoming force and deals with it (maybe with a strike or three, who knows?)
    Fighting has a more attacking mind set to it. Attacking the other guy, finding his/her weakness and defeating them.

    Taijiquan in the modern era
    Things change. When taiji (or cotton boxing) came into being, the world was a martial place. Skills were needed to defend yourself against bandits and the like. As soon as cotton boxing got the name taijiquan, it was alrady changing from its original form.
    Previously the art would have stuck to its own 'teachings' and principles, but as soon as a connection was made to the taoist philosophies, then it started to change. (This is based on the premise that the wudang connection is tenuous as best, so did not happen till after YLC went to Beijing) People read the dao de qing and saw how that could be applied to taijiquan. Principles of non-action, wu-wei, worked themselves into the art. Cotton boxing got spiritual (not religious, but spiritual).
    We now live in a world, or at least I do, where violence is not so common. I am unlikely to get into a fight any time soon. So why should I spend years/decades of my life learning how to beat people up? Why should I learn how to defend myself, if those methods mean that I end up getting charged in the courts for use of excessive force? If I do learn to fight/defend then how should I test these skills to make sure that they are up to scratch? Start a fight? Enter competitions (where the rules may hinder the skills that I have)? Spar (where the rules mean that I cannot really test what I know)?

    What's the point of owning a gun, if you never shoot anything? What's the point of learning how to use a sword, if you never stab anything? What's the point of learning a martial art, if you are never going to get into a fight?

    I study taijiquan primarily for my health. Mental, spiritual and physical. I've tried yoga (damn hard work!), but prefer taiji. I like the spirituality/philosophy behind taijiquan (taoist/confucian/a little bit of bhuddism), it takes me away from the stresses of the day and allows me to deal with them better. I like the physical hard work that is required, strengthening my legs, improving my balance, helping me to physically relax. I like the group that I practice with (a few have very challenging views that would really inflame some folks around here I reckon). I enjoy the two person training also. This starts with push hands, but carries on to da lu, jian fencing, applications, etc. The two-person stuff is what makes it all so much fun. I want to improve my skills all the time, but I am not all that anxious that I learn how to fight; there just isn't the need. I do however need to stay healthy.

    Is what I'm studying True(TM) Taijiquan? Is it the real deal? Are the masters from the past turning in their grave? Do I care? Should I care?

    I study taijiquan. Is it exactly the same art that YLC was taught? Probably not, but then again I doubt that anyone is learning exactly what YLC was taught.

    A quote from a riding instructor (from the East end of Glasgow): "I'm not a hippy, I'm just a c@~t with long hair!" :D
     
  18. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    I cant see why its blurred... its all fighting... defence is different from offense sure but either way you are still fighting... no blur at all... offensive fighting or defensive fighting one or the other you will still be fighting... even yielding within a fight means that you are still in a fight and thus fighting...

    Great point... the dao can be applied to taijiquan or cotton boxing but taijiquan is not based on the dao more its based on several martial arts and has great health benefits... of course the origins of taiji are blurred a little and what taiji is based upon will depend on which origin you believe in...

    I wanna live with you... :D seriously though... I live in London and its not a bad part of London either.. I have never had a problem nor have I been in a fight I have even stopped a few from starting but I cannot say that todays world isnt a violent place... you just never know and isnt it better to be prepared and not need it than to be unprepared and need it...?? testing is a sticky issue but realistically testing by your shifu/teacher is about all we can do today...

    Some people like to collect guns either antique or not... some like to collect swords... but the thing is you can do target practice and can practice swordsmanship... both can be tested fairly easily unlike martial arts (almost typed marital arts but then thats a whole other ballgame and one thats tested all the time... :D )

    Perhaps... but the discussion was turned this way by the comment that taiji isnt about fighting... when clearly the originators and subsequent masters etc formed taiji as a fighting technique... so perhaps the thread went a little of the beaten path...


    My understanding is that no-one learns like the teacher/shifu learns/learnt it... each adding a little bit of invidualism to it while staying within the confines... heck we even add our own due to bodyshape/bodytype...

    Best quote yet...lol... nice one... :D
     
  19. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    quick thought:

    Taijiquan isn't about conflict.
    Yang vs Yang.

    our yin defeats/negates their yang, and our yang attacks their yin. A harmoneous fluid action ending in their 'destruction'.
     
  20. daftyman

    daftyman A 4oz can of whoop-ass!

    argh! just had another thought! (my head hurts!)

    You tell someone you are learning to fight. What would they think?

    You tell someone you are learning self-defense. What would they think?

    both involve fighting, but one seems more aggressive.

    Taiji players aren't nice. neither are they not nice. We're balanced. Neither overly aggressive, nor overly passive, just balanced.
     

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