Thats whats wrong with the Taijiquan community, and thats exactly what I mean't when I said to Nzric that Taiji has it's O'Sensei's but some people disagree with O'Sensei. If you look at Taijiquan historically and you read the classics and the family writings of these arts you can see that there is a clear directive as to what Taijiquan is and what it is not. The room for interprutation is minimal at best. The bottom line is that Taijiquan is a fighting art that has healing benefits within the slow training of the forms and Qigong. Taijiquan practiced as it is by most today is not what the old master had in mind ... when you incorrectly interprut Taijiquan because of your own personal view of things and ignore the obvious directive as it is passed down then you are altering the intended balance of what it is. Your watering it down in my opinion. If you don't want to know how to fight using Taiji then just do Qigong, Yoga and Pilates ... just don't continue to sell the idea of Taijiquan as something it was never intended to be. Taijiquan is not a soft Taoist excercise ... it's a killing art with self healing elements. It had to be said.
So, basically what your saying is that any modern development is a degeneration of Taiji... No ego in that of course... You just dont like the idea that what your doing isnt 100% right... EDIT> I'm not saying what your doing is wrong in any way, but merely that in your opinion it is 100% right, and you think everyone should do it the same as you, therefore allowing you to pass judgement easily on someone else because you all study excatly the same way. You dont like that fact that, other people, with other views, are beyond your idea of Taiji as a fighting art. We've all got ego's. We just all need to control them. By controlling your ego, you may see that it is fine for other people to have views that differ from yours. As an aside.... We have Chen style... We have Yang style... Chen came first, where did Yang come from? Did someone else just start practicing it, and it happened to be similar in some fashion to Chen? The Wu and Sun styles... Where are they from???
So basically you haven't understood what I said. What I said is that any departure from what the Masters of Taiji laid down as the directive of Taijiquan is a degeneration of Taijiquan. If you read the secret Yang family transmissions and their teachings and examine the historical lives of the Masters in their time it's pretty clear what Taijiquan is and is not. If you ignore that and change it then you are watering it down; your not doing Taijiquan ... it's that simple. I am not free of ego, I try to be but it is impossible to free of all ego ... that would be an imbalance. It's not an idea I don't like, it's the reality of what many like to think Taijiquan is. There is no such thing as 80% right or 95% right in Taijiquan ... your either doing it or not. I'm happy with the Taijiquan I am doing because I am treating/practicing the art as it was historically intended; primarily as a martial art with self healing aspects. It's clear what Taijiquan is ...
That's true but unfortunately the 'new age' taiji players will always say the martial taiji players are too yang. and the martial ones will always say the new ager's are too yin. Seems like both parties our out of balance, eh? I've seen guys in balance, usually good instructors who teach taiji martially but who accept those who are doing it only for health. Perhaps we should all keep this quote in mind: "The extent of a person's evolution is proportionate to their acceptance of the unacceptable" Ultimately, no matter how good your points are, if you're arguing (that common thing on these forums that looks like debating, only with name calling) you're wrong. If I'm totally about 'authentic' taiji (martial art/health balanced) and i see some 'new age hippy' why should I be mad? If I really understand things i'd know that no matter how mad i get it's not going to change this person. We all like to think we have the ability to change everyone by simply telling them our opinions but in reality people only change themselves. If i say 'screw you' and you get mad and strike me, it's not because I made you do it. It's because you chose to be affected by what I said. Words just arent powerful, only thoughts that are acted upon. To be at the highest level is to be able to watch your thoughts and realize that the real you is separate from them, realize they're not real no matter what the thought was. I think we all should spend more time meditating and learning philosophy not just working on martial applications, because that's again out of balance. The problem with the west is we tend to strip out all of the culture from the martial arts. On one hand I see syd's point about going and just practicing Yoga if you just want something peaceful and healthful exercise/philosophy but any wise yogi would tell you you can practice yoga in all things. THis world is up to your own creation, don't be fooled by what people tell you things should be. But just be cautious that if you go around going against perrenial dictum that you're creating friction. This goes back to my earlier post "don't make claims and you'll be fine." Btw, everything i just said was contradictory to the message. Ignore me, what do i know The funny thing about 'openly expressed opinions' is that the person telling them not always firmly believes them. he currently might, but is (on some level) trying to challenge his own believes by seeing how others respond. He may change his beleifs if someone says, or does, something that he finds a better "path". All in all, opinions are just thoughts. I find trying to find the roots of all my own thoughts is the most rewarding exercise. where do these thoughts spawn from? can you see where they originate from in your head, surely they dont just pop out of no where!
Can you blame me? Basically, if your not studying the original ideas and form of Tai Chi, your not doing Tai Chi. Prove it. Pretty please? Hadn't noticed. If your happy, then dont let what were doing spoil it for you. You go play now, go on, off you go... Agreed. Open to individual interpretation. Thats what Taijichuan is.
I didn't make up the standard for what constitutes the correct practice of Taijiquan but rather I am taking my cue's from the masters of this art, the men who invented it. Your not wrong by my standards but by the standards of those who invented the art. If you read the Taiji classics, examined the Yang family teachings and their individual lives and the writings of their students you might come to learn what Taijiquan is and how it ought to be practiced. I think it should be practiced as it was intended to be practiced, most people ignore this. Allot of this is changing for the better however, I see no reason to refrain from stating to obvious. What your saying is that your beyond Yang Lu Chan and the Chens idea of what Taijiquan is ... it's not about me buddy, it's about them. You are diverging from what they intended the art to be and it was clearly stated what it is and it isn't and when it is and when it isn't ... I'd read more deeply or stick to Yoga. Your basically just doing Yoga dressed up as Taiji otherwise. This isn't about ego, though you might like to twist it in that direction. This is about correct practice by the standards of the Masters who invented Taijiquan and incorrect practice. You think it's about me but for me it's about Taijiquan, nothing else. Yang style came from Yang Lu Chan, what he learned from the Chens was a different art. What Yang later changed and learned in the Wudang mtns led to his developing his own art which became known as Yang Style Taijiquan. The name Taijiquan was attributed to Yangs Style by a Court Poet, it was not given to the Chen Style or any other style that followed. Yang style is Taijiquan. Wu style was a particular frame of the Yang Style that Yang taught in court to Wu. Wu style became known later due to a political bun fight between Yang Cheng Fu and an official who later promoted Wu out of bitterness. Wu Hao was again the art that Yang Lu Chan taught Wu but this was the very small frame which was very internal and transparent. Some suggest that Wu Hao was a mixture of Chen and Yang style and the Sun style is a much later more modern branch of all that came before. The point is that these arts are fighting arts, the individual branches are fine by me if and when they train the arts as they were intended to be practiced' but to ignore these arts as combat arts and water them down into some new age Yoga for self help intellectuals with a Yen for the east, is so far off the mark by the standards of the old Masters it's not even funny Your either doing Taijiquan or not.
are any of us on this forum "masters"? I'd put my money on nay. Maybe we shouldn't take eachother so seriously seeing as how we're all students and trying to figure things out. It's no wonder theres so much fighting in the world, no one can get along not even on a taiji forum! And it's no wonder people are so confused about taiji, everyone's got a different opinion of what's real and whats not. Searching for the truth is a good thing, but understand its a constant thing so you're wasting time spending energy trying to convince other people that they're not seeing the truth... time you could be using searching for it yourself. We probably shouldnt be trying to convince anyone anyway, but instead merely exchange ideas. and above all have fun and learn. I understand some people are very righteous simply because they're reciting what some "masters" said and thus they feel that others are wrong. But you can't take credit for this simply because your interpretation of something higher than you might be wrong! Please ask yourself what qualifies you to be such a taiji advocate before you go about advocating. This boils down to respect. If you really respect others there wouldnt be all this conflict going on. We'd all say things like "here's where i'm at... not where you should be" and get back to training. I understand that thats boring but if things that arent filled with drama bore you...
Why would I blame you for something thats inherent to your nature? Yes. Do your own research, I'm not here to pander to your narcissism. It's all there for those with the eye's to see it. Did the Yangs fight? - Yes! Did the Chens fight? - Yes! Did the Wu's fight? - Yes! Did any of the above families kill anyone using their art? - Yes! Did they only ever practice slow moving forms and sit around prosthelatyzing about ego and how mellow they all are? No! Was Taijiquan invented as a meditation method only? No! And you deduce from the history of this art that it ought to be practised with your own personal interprutation which is at total odds with those who created it and practiced it. Hilarious. Thats all you notice ... narrow view will do that to you though. You can never spoil it for people who are informed, it's the people who find out about Taijiquan from the likes of you first that are at a disadvantage. Thats what you think it is, sadly.
No ... Taijiquan practitioners who practice Taiji and learn the art as a fighting art are completely balanced in that they perform the slow sets and Qigong as well as performing the combat drills and weapons forms. This is how the art was designed to be practiced and performed ... this is balance. The Taiji practitioners who are labelled "Martial" practitioners are only labelled as such because they practice the combat elements at all, they also practice the internal aspects and balance the art correctly. The new agers do nothing but Yin Taiji, thats the issue. Where's the balance in that?
Why? You seem to like the sound of your own voice... Did I ever deny this? - no. Did Taiji_Butterfly - No Did I ever deny this? - no. Did Taiji_Butterfly - No Did I ever deny this? - no. Did Taiji_Butterfly - No Did I ever deny this? - no. Did Taiji_Butterfly - No Did I ever say thats what I do? - No. Did Taiji_butterfly - No Did I ever deny that? - no. Did Taiji_butterfly - No Thats your personal interpretation of my personal interpretation. Your the one with the narrow view. "Its not Taiji if you dont practice how the masters practiced". Aha... How many other martial arts are now practiced in ways different to the way the masters and founders practiced... Many styles of Karate, Jeet Kune Do, Tae Kwon Do, Jujutsu, Wing Chun, Kung Fu... Thats the sweetest thing anyones ever said... :love: Well, one of us has to do the thinking... I actually mainly study external arts
Well, one of us has to do the thinking... Hey, i read the classics too and i very much remember the quote "Thinking forever is useless, better to study." In fact, the old chinese taiji students didn't really get much time to think about taiji. they simply did it. The masters even discouraged questions and all these debates on theory and such.. Perhaps they discouraged it because they knew the futility of it all? Taiji's main principles are to empty your mind, be calm and and just react in the most appropriate ways. Unfortunately, a taiji "web forum" is inherentely doomed simply because it's pure mind chatter expressed in ascii It may not be my place to say this, but maybe this forum should be more positive. Maybe we can use it as a place to simply answer questions (with integrity) and always give 'our humble opinion'. Fact is, you're better off giving people links to books and articles by well respected taiji guys than for any of us to give our opinion on this forum. People simply wont take anyone that seriously becuase they have no idea who you are, and what youre credentials are.
Well, everyone seems to be enraptured by the teachings of the masters. Syd, Shadow, follow this lesson. Dont argue, just train. Leave us to do what we do. We practice both martial and health aspects. We neither want nor require your approval, or that of the masters.
Well, everyone seems to be enraptured by the teachings of the masters. Syd, Shadow, follow this lesson. Dont argue, just train. Leave us to do what we do. We practice both martial and health aspects. We neither want nor require your approval, or that of the masters. of course i'm "enraptured" by the teachings of the masters. hello, they're masters, they clearly have more depth of knowledge of the subject than me. Do you ignore the teachings of your professors at school? If you say, wanted to learn computer programming, would you not respect the books made by the authors of the programming language(s) you're using? However i do think you should think for yourself and be objective, and take out whats useful to you.
Yay, a lively discussion in the tai chi forum! I agree with everything Syd has been saying (how do you remember all the books you read mate, it amazes me!). Tai chi is a path to philosophy and health, but at its core it is a martial art that is developed using qigong exercises. The aim of a martial art is to defeat the enemy. Whether you defeat them by hurting them or by exhausting them through constant yielding is up to you, but neither is "true" tai chi. Tai chi is simply the performance of physical moves using principles of controlling and redirecting force. There has never been a history of non-violence in tai chi, and as Syd rightly points out, many tai chi masters have been well known for their experience in combat. Just because tai chi uses principles of yielding doesn't mean it's a non-violent, or pacifist art. Aikido has a philosophy of non-violence which was begun at the same time as the art, but tai chi is completely different as it has never had such a philosophy/tradition!. Tai chi training, from its founders, has always involved intensive physical training to train the students for the reality of combat. When students got into fights and lost (as Yang Lu Chan did many times when he was learning), they would go back and refine their training even further so they would win if they were in the same situation again. If you have a philosophy of non-violence then fine, do moving qigong and stretching exercises for the health and calming benefits. You're not doing tai chi though. Tai chi is a series of health exercises derived from effective martial strategies. The purpose of a martial art is to find useful ways to defeat an opponent (whether by hurting them or not). There is no way to know your self defence techniques will be effective unless you practice them under duress (of course every confrontation is different but a simulation is still useful). If you don't do the above, you will not know that you can defend yourself properly and you will teach bad habits to any student you have. If you claim you practice a martial art, practice a martial art!
Syd's point clearly was that you want to be a taiji practioner yet you ingore the teachings of the originators/masters... You kinda fall into the non christian who ignores christian believes.. ie you're a non taiji practitioner who ignores taiji's teachings?
