This is just a pondering I had after reading so many things about people taking tai chi only as a 'health dance'. I noticed that no one ever mentioned this possibility: Say you just started learning yang style taiji. You start learning the YCF form and are told that you're not getting any health benefits out of it while learning the form, so you're told to do standing qigong everyday to get the health benefits. Ok you're obviously NOT getting any fighting skills while learning the form then. (except maybe some prerequistite conditioning, but not self defense skills) Ok, now say while learning the YCF form and doing your qigong everyday you build up your health and this great inner peace and you now no longer even wish to continue into the fighting stuff! You then quit paying for more lessons and go off to a park to study that YCF form everyday and live happily ever after. You may think to yourself that sure someone someday might try to attack you in the park but you remember the best thing to do is remain calm and run away if necessary. You also think since it takes anywhere from 2-10 years to be able to fight with taiji that its just not worth going past the health aspects into the martial onces especially since the health benefits are nearly immediate (so long as you practice your form and/or qigong everyday).
I'm sorry I don't quite see what you're trying to say. If a person is happy with health benefits then that's fine. The YCF long form is not designed to give a person martial capabilities in itself. If a person just want's to learn to fight well then you are better off doing a martial art with proven effectivness, eg muay thai or bjj.
This is enough to suggest you don't know what your talking about. Yang Cheng Fu never studied his grandfathers art and yet he was known for being an exceptional boxer. The Yang Cheng Fu long form is a more transparent form than the Old Yang Michuan, but make no mistake, for those who know the form at it's higher levels it is every bit as martial as the Old Yang Style.
I do know what I'm talking about, I'd appreciate it if you read my statements clearly before making wild presumptions about what I do and don't know. In order to gain any martial skill in taiji you have to do fa jing and pushing hands in addition to the form. That was the point I was making. I'm not trying to derride the YCF form in any way I studied it myself for a long time.
Well I did read your statement and I found it somewhat lacking, sorry. Well thats exactly what I was taught when learning Yang Cheng Fu's long form. You can indeed perform the YCF with fajing and indeed you ought to be practicing push hands after learning the first third. If a school doesn't teach those elements then they aren't worth visiting in my humble opinion. This idea that the YCF form is not a martial form in itself is actually incorrect. Many Taiji fighters who studied under YCF were known as great fighters. Everything that the Old Yang Style contains the New Yang Style contains apart from slightly different applications and certain postures. They are both fighting and healing arts with one being more transparent than the other ... that is all.
Tai-chi isn't all about fighting, and everyone gets benefit from tai-chi! While tai-chi is a powerful fighting art, the masters usually don't see themselves as warriors. You need to learn more about tai-chi.
I don't see the problem myself. It's like worrying that taking tae-bo lessons won't make you a champion kickboxer, or that playing tennis won't help you in a NHB cage match. Of course it won't. If you want the martial side, train the martial side. Your art will be a lot more balanced because of it. If you just want to do a health dance, so be it.
heh these replies steered way out of control, now i feel like a troll. My point was simply that 'real' taiji instructors want their students to get the whole curriculum and do it for martial arts and health but that the way taiji is taught (where the self defense isnt really apparent to the student until quite a while) could easily lead people to thinking that the health aspects are more than enough. Let's also not forget that something like 85% of students quit any martial art within their first few months. so if all they got was qigong or some form out out taiji then all they're going to know it as is health exercise (even if they continue to train with what they learned)
Sure, but any Taiji instructor who keeps the martial side of Taiji a secret from their students until allot later isn't the kind you need to visit. So hypothetically speaking, ok yeah. If a person learns Taiji and only thinks the art is a health art then why would they go away after a few months thinking Taiji was a fighting art anyway? Most if not all Taiji students know it's a combat art if they are learning Taiji as self defense. If they quit after 6 months they know they didn't learn to fight but instead got some Qigong. If they try and take somebody on in a street fight with bad Taiji form and Qigong they deserve what they get. FIN.
What you said, and what the following quote i read said, indeed spawns interesting thoughts in my head: "it's by means of your awareness, or where you direct your attention, that you also direct your life force. So if you're aware of your thoughts, worry, or intellect, that's where most of your energy will dwell. Accordingly, thought, worry, and intellectual ponderings will be the predominant experience of your life. As you direct your attention into the body, not by thinking about the body, but by becoming aware of the sensations in your toes, fingertips, stomach, heart, and so on, your life force will flow into these areas. Your experience becomes more sensual and complete. Your mind might seem extremely intelligent, but the mind alone is an incomplete life tool. The body has a deeper wisdom and intuition to offer. Experiencing your entire being benefits your physical health, deepens your sense of well-being, gives you more energy, and stimulates creativity." The thoughts these quotes spawn in my head are that if we study 'martial' arts we're directing our life force/intent into violence (be it offensive or defensive). Ever notice how most martial artists you see who really focus on the fighting aspects always end up either in fights or competing. Or at the very least throwing kicks at peoples faces at parties? They're focus on fighting is making their experience of life more violent. I know many instructors who condem fighting but enter martial arts competitions all of the time. That goes far away from the martial wisdom that says 'the warrior only fights when he MUST.' It is hardly self defense if you're signing up for a bjj tournament. An IMA/BJJ instructor by my house just had his ankle shattered at a bjj tourney he entered. Shouldnt he know better? Well i'm sure he'd argue that to refine his skills, or to be able to better teach them, he must put them to real use. (The mind will find any excuse to justify its intentions!) Now think of the yoga practitioners (the real deal ones). On the top list of their principles is ahisma, or non-violence. These guys have ZERO intention of harming anyone or anything (including themselves). And the experience of their life is mostly that of no violent experiences. Certainly far far less than any martial artist (especially common martial artists who are still in ego-land and havent mastered the tao and avoidance of fighting). Now some are thinking, "Yeah, but the yogi's can't fight!" Exactly my point, exactly my point.... Perhaps, more often than not, "can't" leads to "won't", leads to "won't have to"? Another example of this is Erle Montaigue, (whom I respect) but if you've ever heard him speak much you'd hear how he says we live in a very violent world and we need to learn deadly strikes. He even says he teaches his kids these deadly strikes. Perhaps his paranoia stems from the fact that he practices martial arts so martially, and thus either is, or feels he could be, attacked all of the time. I don't know about you guys but the last fight i had was in highschool and it was more of a shove-match. Let's face it, martial arts were created before guns. I think the Health part should get 99% of the importance of martial arts these days and 1% to preserve and teach you self defense skills. Just my opinion though!
On the top list of their principles is ahisma I think this sums up the attitude of nearly all Taiji practitioners which is why you don't see them entering meat-head cage matches.
Fair enough - anyone who wears a MA club t-shirt to a party or a bar deserves a kicking. But then again there are way too many IMA people who walk around saying "you're lucky I'm a calm person cause my death touch could rot your organs" until they get a bottle in the face from someone who calls their bluff. Face it - there's only one way to know if your art is truly effective, and that's to perform it under duress. I don't mean entering a cage match, but I fear there are a lot of people studying tai chi with a false sense of security of their own self defence ability. There's nothing wrong with not being a fighter. Many people have no interest in MA and it's much better to say you can't fight than to say you're hiding some secret chinese death moves. Thing is, if you want to train the martial side of tai chi, do it - and practice in a way that you're truly confident of your ability to handle yourself. Tai chi will always have this stigma. Old people and hippies are drawn to it because the watered down western versions emphasise the flowing movements (yep, without the real internal principles). And someone who checks it out on tv or for a couple of classes will only see the gentler side. On the other hand, go into any EMA club and see everyone with angry faces and lots of shouting and your first reaction tends to be "oooh, that looks fearsome".
Actually I personally haven't met any Taiji students with that attitude, but I'm sure they exist. I totally agree with that sentiment but the only way to truly test your art if you don't enter open MMA tournies is to get into real fights. Even sparring is a set up and totally unnatural situation which can bring about bad habits and a false sense of security if you don't keep your eye on the point of the excercise. In sparring you generally have two people training in the same art who are kind of compliant and ready for certain activity. Hopefully both parties in a harder sparring pull their punches! So how else do you realistically train a strike to ST-9 with an arm break and knee break ... without killing someone or going to jail? I'd love to be able to go all out for training purposes but they haven't bred disposable clones for that precise purpose ... yet. I think this is slowly going to change in the near future, there are allot of schools out there now that are turned on to the Combat aspects of Taijiquan and it seems the Watered Down bridage have reached their point of critical mass ... somethings bound to give. Many hard stylists are turning to Taijiquan because of the reputation it has as a fighting art but the problem is that it takes allot of time to put it all together because it is so complex. I'd rather spend ten years becoming a good Taiji fighter than 5 years becoming an exceptional hard stylist. Taiji takes allot of energy and comittment, not allot of people are ready for that and they want instant results and instant gratification ... thats a big reason why there are so few Taiji fighters out there kicking ass. The other thing is that the mentality of the Taiji fighter is not to get into fights, it's a last ditch resort in a life and death situation. Even the old masters talk about playing coward unless you have no way out. You wouldn't get that attitude from most boxers and hard stylists. I'm happy to keep training in my art, I've got nothing to prove to the BJJ cats and Muay Thai boys ... my lifestyle isn't geared toward making a fight happen, it's about evasion ... I think Taiji is about that too.
I don't think entering a MMA tourney is a good idea for 3 reasons: 1) I don't know if i ever could get to a place where i really feel confident about fighting one of those 250lb muscle guys who would take my punches like nothing and then sodomize me. 2) even if i could win in those tournaments how am i testing all of taiji when theres rules in those things that prevent you from using any deadly strikes? 3) even if i beat one guy does that really prove anything? itd just get EVERY tights wearin, roid raging lunatic after me tryin to beat me and once they did they'd just say 'see taiji is nothing'! lets face it. You lose weather you're constantly in real fights beating the crap out of people and you lose if you're never in a real fight and have never had the humbling experience of having your pride destroyed by reality. As far as violence goes there are no real winners. You only win when you're mature enough to be enjoying the life that you have. Why jeopardize that to proof anything? Even if someone jumped you and you used your self defense skills you still have to think of the real importance.. its not that you kicked their ass! (thats purely serving the ego which does no one any good).. its that you remained safe so you can get back to your family. There are 3 stages of a man in my opinion: 1) being called a p*ssy and being affected by it 2) becoming "tough" to where you're physically not a p*ussy 3) becoming tough to where you're mentally not a p*ussy (being able to be called a p*ssy and no longer being affected by it because you know who you really are) unfortunately a lot of people don't make it to stage 3... and these days with the computer programming jobs and such, not even to stage 2
None of the above defines me in any way at all, I simply don't relate to the attitude or the exercise. I think the paradigm is extremely limited from the outset. There are allot of people who are beyond the above set of critereon which seems pretty '1st year highschool' to me. If you allow others to define you your nothing but a slave.
sounds like #3 to me. some people jump straight to that one I do admit that my "test of a man" thing was pretty lamely put though, but i dont think its 'highschool' at all. have you seen adults these days? worse than most kids!
Thats a given though, adults who act like children clearly aren't worthy of the title of adult, hence the paradigm being very 'highschool' ... atleast from this adults perspective.
I think taiji is great. The thing I like about it is that it is good for my health. There are vast numbers of people out there who need this type of health exercise. It gives them the ability to defend themselves against 'illness', falling over', stress, etc. I like the fact that I will be able to do this right into my old age. I am also deeply interested in the martial aspect, and I am fortunate enough to be part of a school that allows me to explore that side. However, I don't really need to be a great fighter. I have lived in Glasgow for over a decade and the number of fights I have been in could be counted on the fingers of one head. (that's not a spelling mistake) The world is what you make it. People who view the world as a generally nice place tend to find that. People who view the world as full of violence, tend to find that. Its your perception of the world. Its not what the world really is. On the subject of the 'watered down' stuff. I think that the renewed interest in the martial aspect of taiji will also lead to faults of its own. Some people will teach 'taiji' as a martial art and just ignore the principles. What people will be left with will be a modified shaolin/taiji-esque martial art. All mouth and no trousers. They'll gloss over the 'good' stuff, just so that they can learn to kick, punch, throw, etc. Taiji for health, without the martial training is not the complete picture. Taiji for fighting, without the 'health' practices, is also not the complete picture. For me, I'd rather have people learn the health than the martial. The best thing would be for people to learn the whole art. The martial practices help your health practices. Your health practices wil also affect your martial practices as well. It's just another yin/yang partnership working in harmoneous balance.
