Tai chi Yang style trad. 108 form [Tut Request]

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by rusilja, Jan 21, 2009.

  1. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    humm... may be you shouldn't take life so seriously, as getting back to being a child is not a bad thing.


    Yes fine great explanation I can read text books too, but I don't quite know why you are telling me this. The original question was in response to this statement
    "I can SEE that he can USE fa jing"

    It was the the words USE and SEE that I was questioning. But you seemed to find my question funny and decided to belittle me which from someone who has been doing Taiji for so long strange. Why? is it not a fair question? why do people have to change things so they can voice their knowledge?

    Use and express are to different words.

    You can't express power internally, unless you actually have power which you can manifest it on a physical level first.

    Ouch!! now there's a statement a lot of people won't like and don't say I don't understand x=y and y=z, because I like many others on this forum walk the walk.

    You can't take the Quan out of Taiji.
     
  2. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

     
  3. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Sorry due to cut backs and all the comedians being out of work this is all you get.
     
  4. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member

    You are still thinking that you need to see some visible sign of power for power to be there.
    I'm not trying to belittle you or your questions. However, if you feel belittled by my answers, then perhaps their is a reason for that within yourself?
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Edited to fix below quote. I mistakenly quoted it as East Winds...

    Smaller circle movements are for application/combat, the forms will have larger movements for reasons such as health and tendon training, etc. As for the rest, that's really something I'm not very knowledgeable about.

    I can at least link to what might be better videos of the form (I would say more towards the applications, particularly the first video), IMHO. I think it helps if you know the applications in the form (or at least some of them) and have been taught them outside of Tai Chi Chuan, then you can have better perspective on if the application is actually improved or not by what is being taught in Tai Chi Chuan. I mentioned in another thread that most of Tai Chi is taught for health reasons and the Tai Chi Chuan application was not taught to many.

    I think what you really want is video of the push hands competitions involving Fu Zhongwen.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIpKW6AnKYw"]YouTube - Fu Zhongwen Yang-style Form Part 1[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-tLF_hZAEE"]YouTube - Fu Zhongwen Yang-style Form Part 2[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  6. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    You know, Carys, if you make a point - as you do - of saying things like 'One wonders how much you know about taiji if...' then it's not bullying to take a look at how much YOU actually know.

    You've spent years here, telling other people what's what in terms of taiji. And if that's backfired by posting up a video of you, that's not bullying - if it just so happened that once your video was seen, it wouldn't back up your claims, that's your fault, not my crime; and isn't that really what I've been arguing about and trying to explain all this time?

    We need to reverse from the haughty attitude. We need to reverse from making high claims, putting others down, questioning their inteligence and understanding the moment they try and be honest. If being honest is what upsets the world of taiji most of all, what does that say about the world of taiji?
     
  7. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    In Scientology they have this deliberate policy of never discuss what they've done, always making everything about the critics - attack the critics, make everything their fault.

    One of the characteristics of internet threads is that unless people have followed the thread, they have no idea what's going on - so you can often get away with things like this - as in, belittling people then denying it, and then adding further insult by blaming them for feeling belittled.

    Actually, there's something 'within' all of us that rejects belittling, because we know that it is a strategy used by people who have no other way of proving what they say.
     
  8. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    Rebel Wado,

    I did not post that quote in your last response. It was whoflungdat. He is clearly confused about the difference between small movement and small frame. An easy mistake to make due to lack of knowledge.

    Very best wishes
     
  9. jalan7

    jalan7 Valued Member

    Hi Folks,


    I stated in an earlier post that I can see that Fu Zhong Wen can use fa jing. I did not say that I see him using fa jing in this video. What I meant was that there are technical and skill requirements for issuing energy and that these are visibly present in Fu Zhong Wen's Form.

    Some of these requirements include: relax and sink, connect the whole body without break off points, support from the heel to the hands, etc.

    Again to clarify - I wrote that I can see that the late Master "can use fa jing", not that he "is using" fa jing or demonstrating some invisible issuing energy in these Form clips.

    I've noticed some inferences that using fa jing is a super high level skill in Taiji - it is not that high level. If a student is taught well and can keep root, has developed some internal energy through practice, and knows how to neutralize - then he can use fa jing. After a few years with an instructor who has the ability to transmit true taiji knowledge the student should be able to demonstrate this skill.

    One problem is that which we all hold concern over - taiji is becoming diluted over the years. You get teachers who don't want to admit that they didn't learn certain skills and can't demonstrate what the student asks saying: "oh, that's REALLY high level stuff and only 2 guys in the world who are 90 years old can do that." In reality they either didn't have a qualified teacher, didn't stay long enough to learn the "high level" stuff, or they aren't humble enough to say that they learned "taiji for health" and are now trying to teach "taiji as a martial art" - or they don't know the difference.

    I think that most of you would appreciate taking the mystery out of discussion of things like fa jing and discussing the tangible skills involved that we can all help each other and learn from one another's experience. Let's try that approach on some of these discussions - any takers?


    Best
     
  10. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member

    Is that why you use it?
     
  11. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    Oooooooh Fire-quan, you are a card!!!!!!!! NOW I see where you are coming from. Silly Me. Lets get rid of all the old farts like Wagner, Sibelius, Mahler, Bach, and others. What did they know about music anyway. Lets replace them all with Phillip Glass, Steve Reich and Terry Riley. Oh and whilst we are at it lets get rid of Shakespeare, Ibsen, Twain, Keats and all the others. What the hell did they know about writing anyway. Whilst we're at it lets get rid of Ch'en-ch'ang-hsing and Yang Lu Chan and...........no wait a minute I think that's where I came in.

    Yang Cheng-fu was very succinct when he said "Don't be deluded by your own cleverness and foolishly make additions or deletions. If modifications were necessary in the methods laid down by worthy men of the past, then these would have been implemented during the many centuries from the Yuan and Ming dynasties down to the present". But then, what the hell did he know!!!!

    Very best wishes
     
  12. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    This is actually pretty funny. "If it needed changing, someone before me would've changed it..." What if those who came before thought the same thing?
     
  13. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Amen to that. Problem is, the moment you dare to question anything, you, or we, will be told that we're too low level to understand why we can't see whatever thing it is we're supposed to be buying this week. There really is no means of debating this stuff, and finding truth, when people like EastWinds make claims then attack anyone who doesn't believe them as being too uneducated or untrained, therefore they don't know the truth - you know, exactly as per the story of the Emperor's New Clothes.

    So I suggest another tack - that people who make claims provide some evidence to support them. That's the fundamental basis of true knowledge gathering as a community - observation, hypothesis, test, conclusion. What we have instead is claim, lack of evidence, insult, illusion.
     
  14. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    I think you may have to face the ultimate honesty in this, East Winds - where is the person, even one person, who can use Yang Taiji as a martial art? Even one.

    Regardless, this process is already happening. Contemporary quanshu is a reality as Chinese martial artist all over the world are adapting more realistic trainign methods from other fighting arts. Even if you succeeded in putting me down here, getting me banned, still, it will be happening.

    Again, I invite you, come, see what I am doing, try it. Maybe you'll respect it, and have a different perspective. As long as I've been on this forum I've had an open door to anyone who wants to come down and train with me. Two people have, and I learned a lot from both of them. Maybe you can help me understand something of this deeper level taiji you represent.

    One way or the other, there's no way to show me what you're talking about other than come and show me, or film yourself demonstrating what you're talking about. Come down - you'll be safe.

    Never think that I don't respect the old masters - but I dare to say my understanding is a lot deeper than yours - I'm sorry, it is. Principles of Quan can be expressed at ever deeper levels; the past isn't the best expression - not if we're training properly. We owe to those old masters, in fact, we could notlegitimatelybe their heirs, without trying to build on their knowledge and improve expression of it.

    Either way, contemporary quanshu is built on but separate from China culture and art - it's a new expression of Quan, independent from past worship - look where that's got you - can you even demonstrate fighting yang taiji? Can anyone, without threatening them with 'come here and I'll beat you up'? Get someone serious in, and beat them up. Or, come down and share with me, see what happens. Maybe you'll be in to it, or develop an interest, or atleast respect for it. And if not - well, you can report back as to what a joker I am.

    I mean it - I won't spar with you unless you want me to - just come down and share my training, see what I do. Do some push hands, maybe. Try my class.

    In fact - again, I would love to host people to come and try my class; give me the opportunity to show you what i do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2009
  15. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Do not blame others if by your own actions, words or deeds you or others opened yourselves to ridicule. One can only truly make a fool out of themselves.
     
  16. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Other than that, there's not really all that much I can do, and reading here is stressful, so, if anyone want's to come over to my place, PM me. I'd be glad to see you.
     
  17. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    he he he his lack of knowledge ha ha ha.
    You have know idea of my knowledge and your comment begs the question why?

    I have seen the form performed at the small frame level it is where the form becomes truly internal and the martial is only intent I have seen the Waving form performed with speed and vigour. In 2 years I will be learning the small frame and probably be learning for next 40. I can perform Fajing at a physical level and hit like a truck at very close range can you?? I can fight with my art and am willing to stand up and demonstrate the point, to anyone who wants to come along, even though I know I have just started on the path. So don't be little my lack of knowledge, because what I know is useful and I can apply what I know.
     
  18. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Thank you for your honesty, we appear to have different views on this, I was taught and teach the form always with the Martial applications from the start.
    After a few good years or training the form is taught at the small frame level where the martial intent is hardly noticable and the movements are smaller and far more internal.
    thank you for your reply.
    regards.:)
     
  19. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Err... ...FQ My teacher and the guys I train with and me.

    Why don't we hook up and share?:cool:
     
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I don't know enough to know how different our views on this are.

    I first started learning a Tai Chi form to help learn to relax better, build more fluid movements, and fundamentals. The martial applications are there, but the movements in the form are way too big to be practical. I have never seen a small frame version.

    I believe that the forms don't change, let the forms change you.

    On the subject of practical application. I have been taught some of the applications in the form. Training for me started with having the application done to me so I know what it feels like. It is all structured training, building the proper structure, posture, using proper alignment, proper pivot points... the training starts with bigger circles because that is the level of the beginner, then the circles get smaller and faster through years of training.

    Some of the circles can get so small they are inside the body... but because they are done so quickly inside, they generate explosive power.

    This is new training for me, just the last few years... I'm one that has trained multiple martial arts, mostly hard style fighting. This internal training is for my health and to improve my technique.

    I look at some things such as the palm strike seen in the forms. Tai Chi has the thumb out, most martial artists from hard style keep the thumb in. The thumb in hits hard but tends to bounce off. The thumb out hits more like a wave and it transfers more power into the target. Plus the thumb hits vital/pressure points also.

    From experience I've modified my palm strike to keep the thumb in until impact, then I let it out (and the fingers spread) in a natural motion to get the better transfer of force. The reason I don't leave the thumb out at the beginning is that at any distance (outside fighting in a phone booth range) the thumb out can easily catch on to clothes or arms that are in the way. Easy way to dislocate your thumb. So keep it in for self-protection until you need it out for the force on impact.

    I also look at the alignment of the fist and pivot points. On the palm strike, I look for a pivot point on the fingers, such as in "repulsing monkey." Many times I see pivoting at the wrist during application, this is inefficient power, and I wonder if they just are lazy or don't know any better.
     

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