Tai Chi Self-Defence

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by brood82, Apr 16, 2006.

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  1. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

  2. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    He isn't
     
  3. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    that isn't true either. You go to classes and not pay him a dime. I do.
     
  4. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    And they shout "OmGz he's a Mauy Thai Kick Boxer!!!!" and totally like, crap their pantaloons.
     
  5. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Or - equally plausibly - spontaneous combust at the mere thought of taking on the mighty Liokault... :D
     
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned


    Clik the link (the post was more or less just a link, no real content), you find Ad's for DVD's and books.

    If you want a class (after a lot of digging) they tell you that the only people alowed to teach are all in New York!
     
  7. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    No, but nor do you. Sadly, you do not properly address the bits that you can make real progress in.

    By all means post a brief round up of your realistic anti bite training.



    You shouldn't talk about the people in your class like that :cool:




    Charismatic.......swish :D
     
  8. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    yeah that are only a few teachers in the art unfortunately. Nothing I can do other than become certified to teach and move. The class is not hard to find at all. There are groups through out the US.

    Anyway Tai Chi is the main influence. I also go to tai chi class 2x a week and am now doing BJJ. Its all fun. But there are tai chi self defense classes out there. It can be done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006
  9. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Erm. no. Neither does anybody else here.


    I've never heard Liokault described as 'charismatic' before.

    I have about 12 years of MA experience in total, although I know what I don't know, and which of it was a waste of time.

    You're still avoiding the key point that people who never try and avoid, hit or throw somebody hard who is trying to do the same to them, without a script, can't do it as well as people who do (and sadly, sinking to a level you usually avoid to people who haven't had a go at you first).

    If your contention is that hitting, avoiding, throwing and locking can all be developed to the same standard by only ever 'going light' or even not engage in any kind of 'free play' at all, then I think there's quite a bit of empirical evidence to the contrary.

    If your issue is that what I've said is all well and good, but 'full contact sports' don't address things like biting and knives, then this is true. But then neither do 'self defence' drills where both sides a) know exactly what's supposed to happen next and/or b) know perfectly well that they aren't really going to get bitten or stabbed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2006
  10. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Ah, true perhaps - but then again... I'm not the one claiming my Taiji is "the r33l str33t fightin' k1ck@55 only way an everyone else is jus' pussy mo'fo's" am I? 'Sadly' you are... You, Liokault imho reduce tjq to some joke hybrid of jiujutsu and kickboxing - all in the name of 'reality' - when actually, you create 'reality'... but you'll never realise that because you're too busy kickboxing in the name of it...
    Setting up dualistic 'this versus that' arguments is your forte, not mine m8. I'm not claiming any realistic methods - you are tho (or your stooge was anyhow) - I just thought a touch of 'reality' might unmask the fragility of your logic - it did - further question: do you 'bottle' or 'glass' each other? Didn't think so. I don't either, but I'm smart enough to realise boxing is no better a defence against that kind of (increasingly common) attack than more controlled training. They're just different methods of training - if you aren't flexible enough in your thinking to grok that, then I really think you'd be better off starting your own forum tbh
    Not to me - charisma's a subjective quality - Hitler and Napoleon were considered 'charismatic' so I wouldn't be too flattered if I were you, as they were poisonous little shhhhhh-herberts :D I always choose my words carefully ;)
    Sweet dreams
    :Angel:
     
  11. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    That is an opinion and not a fact - that is the key point imho - everything else is subjective...
    I don't work with scripts - ever - but I do understand that getting hurt in the name of training is, frankly, stupid and not productive. But I guess you'll find out... :rolleyes: Just wait til you get your first really serious back or neck injury from a 'h@rd' throw - suddenly 'reality' will look totally different, trust me :cool: :eek: :cry: :bang:
    :Angel:
     
  12. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    It's well established empirically, because when you put people who haven't trained in this way into an environment where they have to avoid, hit, throw and lock somebody who is trying to do the same to them, and has trained in this way, the vast majority of the time the first guy gets annhilated.

    If I my primary concern was not getting injuries, then I wouldn't do martial arts at all. I would take up yoga and swimming. Besides, nobody forces me to do anything in class. I can opt out of any sparring or grappling I want to and do some stamina exercises or a form instead if I want (and I do). It's not like Liokault and I train in some insane 'cobra kai' environment. But doing these things acts as a reality check of sorts. I've been shown throws and locks in various martial arts, I can even make one or two of them look good if the other person isn't too much heavier and 'goes with it'. However, doing them against somebody who doesn't want me to and is doing their best to do the same to me is an entirely different experience that shows you where you have weaknesses you wouldn't otherwise realise you had.
     
  13. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    I assume we're talking about TCC here?? With all this hard external sparring that some engage in, I just don't see how the proper body and mind method can be developed. In fact, it takes you further away from it.

    You might as well do some form of Kung fu or Karate. I would recommend Wing Chun since it at least has some good stand up to it. :)

    Otoh, this subject matter is getting very very old isn't?
     
  14. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    If 'hitting each other hard' makes something external, then why bother trying to develop striking power in an IMA ? presumably the minute you hit somebody with any attempt to connect with power your IMA training evaporates in a 'poof' of shattered dreams and the sound of crying Taoist priests. So why bother ? Why not just practice hitting in a way that has no effect ?

    I've done a few years of Wing Chun and Shotokan both. They're not as good for 'standup' as well taught Tai Chi.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2006
  15. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    How would you know ? you've got no idea how well your 'body and mind method' will operate when somebody actually tries to hit you.
     
  16. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    TCC - yeah I know what you mean m8 it's a bit like trying to talk on a phone while the other end just keeps blowing an air horn down it, isn't it? I am baffled on a daily basis as to what relation to Taiji any of their training has and I really can't understand why they practise Taiji when they don't work on qi and continually practice waijiaquan methodology and mentality. I'm also particularly underimpressed with the ranting behaviour that often comes out - good MA teaches you how to behave as a person, not just how to damage other persons imo lol
    'Empirically'??? Can you publish the 'empirical' results, or give me a link where I can study them then?
    (Alternatively, don't use long words to try and make your opinions sound like actual facts eh... :rolleyes:
    That's exactly why I took up MA tbh. I was getting in fights on almost a daily basis and got sick of getting battered lol
    Swimming and yoga don't teach you to defend yourself tho do they, so your logic is flawed. Doing MA does not mean letting go of your intelligence imho :cool:
    You could have fooled me lol :D 'Reality' is a fluid state best discussed in the philosophy forum tbh imo
    Okay I've ribbed you enough :D Now we're talking intelligently. I agree with you 100% on this - I've had the same experiences - however, my solution is to go into traditional Taiji to resolve it not away from it. Here's something to think about in your training:
    Do you do locks and holds?
    Do you do them against the opponent?
    If that is the case, it yields up two answers: 1.) why they don't work against a resistant opponent and 2.) why they aren't taiji locks and holds
    Taiji requires you to yield to the opponent, to become sung, to let go - most people interpret this as weak, pathetic and ineffective, but this is wrong. When you yield you blend with the opponents direction and power and steal it, exploit it, use it to defeat him but to do this requires a lot of patient, controlled and boring training - it cannot be done with emotion - particularly aggression. I find applying locks and holds easy, because I don't try or do them - I allow them to happen (these words don't do justice to what I'm saying btw - it's experiencial ime) It also results in others not being able to lock you up easily. If you're working 'against' someone trying to do the same to you tho, you're 'fighting' not practising self-defence the taiji way - 'fighting' is implicitly unbalanced, therefore not taiji imho - but each to their own as I always say... :rolleyes:
    Actually neither have you. :cool: There are way too many variables in all cases - best never to find out really... lol :rolleyes:
    :Angel:
     
  17. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    It can't! all the benefit that could emerge from practicing their Wu based form is negated by this. It is like putting fire under water, the water just evaporates away.

    That *is* what they do. The problem is terminology and description and it is a problem that has affected UK Tai-Chi for over 20 years. It has pretty effectively hi-jacked the internal and is now self purpetuating, as the Wudang / practical group is now a large percentage of people who *call* what they do Tai-Chi. As I have been saying and saying, how can you sensibly talk about the benefits taste and consistancy of a banana when the other persons insists on seeing it as a potato!!!!!

    In the UK about 20 to 25 years old. Docherty deliberately attacked the established tai-chi (in those days very little) as a form of marketing, using the same methods and arguments that are demonstrated here, as Ting Hung used in HK. Derision, confrontation and appealing to the beginner and basic elements in prospective students. It will now not go away, we are stuck with it, and each new generation will try to solve the communication dichotomy that is unsolvable, except by education and insight. Now they educate you by walking up and bashing you, and saying "didn't handle that very well did you". The language of the school playground! Our education is long term and subtle so only appeals to the peacefull and content within society, or to the people who are damaged and wish to become peacefull and content. So we don't breed fighters, thank goodness. We breed people who can *protect* themself and others, that is very different thing. It is not just physical it is mental and emotional as well, it is energetic!
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2006
  18. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Hear hear Richard :D
    - it all comes back to the actions of two individuals.
    They are "deviations of one inch at the outset... leading to a thousand miles at the end of the journey"
    :Angel:
     
  19. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    My my, such an arrogant tone. Maybe if you opened your mind up a little more you might have a different perspective than what you currently have. You are stuck in a square box my friend, and therefore will live within those limitations. No offense, just my opinion.

    In the physical sense, it's not that hitting something hard makes it external, but how you developed your body to get to a point where your strike is an internal strike, which should invove the proper structure, intent, and chi development within the strike itself. If you start right off doing sparring, you will not develop the proper TCC method. Everyone who knows what their doing understands this. It's the same idea as some TCC people who do a lot of weight training; initially they get strong and build up hard and tight muscle, but this is the exact OPPOSITE of a proper TCC body as far as I know. That's why I always say you have to develop the proper body method first before engaging in any type of sparring. Do what you will, but you will never get to the high level stuff if you don't train your body and mind properly first.
     
  20. tccstudent

    tccstudent Valued Member

    Actually, I do have an inkling. I have tested the waters a bit using an experienced boxer friend of mine not too long ago, and found that I am definitely going in the right direction. My friend was quite surprised how well I moved for someone who doesn't really spar at all. I am not saying I am any tough guy or anything, because I know I am not there yet, and won't be for many years to come. In the end, it's not really about being a great fighter anyway, but living a good clean life stress and worry free (that will take some time for me for sure). Another thing that comes to my mind on this subject is the fact that I have avoided a few potentially violent situations by having a certain mind set and awareness, and I would like to think that's at least partly due to my TCC training.

    Anyway, now that I have an "inkling," I will not engage in anymore sparring for another few years or so. I am more interested in developing my intent and power first, as well as the proper body methods to execute that power. In my current school, they don't encourage any open hand sparring until you've been at it some time, but after watching one of my teachers doing some open hand with a senior student last week I found it interesting how little movement was being exhibited by him while the student was more or less being controlled (and getting hit at will in the face). My teacher was calm cool and collected as the student was throwing his hands into his face. That kind of thing takes time to develop. If you rush it, it won't come.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2006
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