Tai Chi Self-Defence

I'd love to take a good Tai Chi program for protection, is it worth looking at?

 

Depends on how 'instant' you want it. It's probably better to take an RBSD (reality based self defence) course if that's all you want.

 

Depends on the school and teacher - some TCC is quite 'hard', despite it being described sometimes as a 'soft' martial art. My teacher said that if you wanted to learn Taiji for self defence, it would probably be more cost-effective to hire yourself a bodyguard! IMO, you have to reach quite a high level to be able to use it in self defence - if that is what you mean by 'protection'. But then, perhaps your local school would disagree..................

 

But this is true of any MA once you get past the point of 'don't walk down dark alleys at night' type training.

When you consider what you want from an MA, if terms such as self defence come up, you really need to go into what self defence is.

Self defence is not the same as fighting, its certainly not the same as street fighting.

If you want to be safe on the 'street' go to a place (not necessarily a MA school) that will impart some common sense into you. If you want to be virtually unbeatable in a fight, buy a knife and spend a day in a seminar learning how to use it.

If you enjoy MA, then do MA but see it for what it is. Even if it is slanted toward 'self defence' it will probably be the least optimal way of learning to be safe.

 

Liokault
Whilst I appreciate you may be being rhetorical/humorous/ironic and regardless of any ongoing historical/ethical/philosophical/personal disagreements between us, can I just point out the irresponsibility of what you've just posted:

Whilst I understand the logic of what you're saying (deeply flawed imo btw), it is a criminal offence to carry a knife in public in the UK and encouraging someone to a.) carry one and b.) use one could be considered incitement to commit a crime.
In light of this, can I suggest you use the 'edit' button on your post to modify, delete or retract that statement?
:Angel:
(Incidently, being 'tooled up' in a fight gives a certain set of permissions to the aggressor/opponent thus pretty well guaranteeing you a trip to hospital or the morgue - not to mention jail - rather than a few cuts and bruises and a headache. Not the smartest strategy going imo )

 

As I understand it, you can carry a blade of less than 3 inches long as long as it is not locking.

I'm not trying to encourage anyone to carry a knife. I am trying to encourage people to question what they mean by self defence.

 

Nope. Not sure exactly on this one, tho I'm fairly sure the law changed in the last ten years over blades . It now covers any blade in a public place. I think that possibly over that length is automatically 'carrying an offensive weapon' - under depends on the circumstances and intent of use (highly subjective - expect the police to err on the side of arresting you/confiscating the blade and giving you a caution if you're a male not at work). I vaguely remember a case where an OAP was arrested for using a pipe-cleaning knife in public (approx 1.5 inches bladed pen knife). Best to assume no blade is legal to carry for anything other than work purposes these days. I also believe they're talking about tightening the law up again too...

I know that. Just remember that smalls read this site too, not just 'mature adults' (lol ) like us tho...
I would question the 'defensive' nature of carrying and/or using a knife on another human being anyway tbh - it certainly breaches 'reasonable force' under most circumstances, unless someone attacks you first, and then the question comes up: 'why were you carrying it in the first place?' (crime then becomes 'going equipped' or simply 'carrying an offensive weapon - with or without intent to use it')
Basically, knives are dodgy ground - best learn how to control/contain/evade one rather than train to use one to avoid temptation/paranoia imo/e....
:Angel:
PS Just a few thoughts to add...
Self-defence: learn to use what you carry already (keys, mobile phone, jacket etc) and what you might actually come across in 'D@ s+r33+'(TM)...
Learn confidence, attitude and a few simple techniques well that you practice often - MA is probably too long a job for most people's requirements, but obviously a higher level of attainment in the long run....

 

Indeed, this is why I split off self defence from fighting.

being the best UFC fighter in the world, 6' 5" tall, 19 stone and carrying a gun is going to do you no good if you don't have the sense not to get so drunk that you cant see then walk home alone semi comatose along the tow paths of Birmingham, singing songs offensive to muslims.

 

hmmm - agreed - not really too sure why specifically muslims tho... and it seems like a three-way split to me: self-defence, fighting and sports fighting
(I think being blind drunk is going to be a problem to performance whichever one you practice tho... lol)
I'm only really interested in practical self-defence methods myself, not competitions or violence to prove some kind of point... but each to their own I suppose

 

Because I couldn't think of a song that would po Birmingham football supporters.

Yeah, I started off there when I first looked at MA, but then a few years in and it became clear that the people who thought that they were really into self defence were fooling them selves.

Not only were they very far away from self defence (why do you feel you need to know a very stylised block of a head kick), but generally couldn't fight as well as the sport guys either.

A further part of the rational went=
Why train for years to feel safe? If I put that training time into a degree I would have a PHD in something non media related and then get a job selling peerages and hire a body guard.
Why live with the injuries that come from training, in the name of being safe? In the time that most Martial Artists train they will pick up more injuries than if they got into a put fight once a year (I'm not going to discuss how you all never get injured, and any one who says that you don't need to get injured is not really training).


Ther bottom line is that you are only be training in MA because you enjoy it, but it is good to keep perspective.

 

You dont need to get injured practicing MA for self defence. Accidents can happen, but they are accidents. There is not the need to "get roughed up" whilst training to be safe. Does this mean I'm not really training?

 

I take a set of classes that uses tai chi as the basis for self defense.
www.attackproof.com Of course, there are people on this site and other who think the class is b.s. I have a broken nose that says otherwise.
There are other classes that teach the combat applications of tai chi.

http://www.taichitaocenter.com/

 

Checked out the website -
"KCD is a new martial art and self-defense teaching system that promotes exponential learning in both beginner and advanced students. It is based on concepts from Native American fighting, Combat Tai Chi, and ancient European/American Close quarters combat."

"Native American fighting" - C00L you get to learn how to hit people with tomahawks and scalp them !!!!

Great - where do I sign up

That was SCARCASM!!!!!!! - And don't even get me started on what a load of prejudicial rubbish the term "Native American" is when referring to "American Indians". The term 'First Americans' is hardly any better... <SIGH>

All the best.

Robert.

 

If you are not getting 'roughed up' in training, why do you think that you will cope when you are getting 'roughed up' on the street.

It always amazes me the first time a guy comes to class who has done TKD or Karate or any of a hundred kung fu classes, I punch them in the head (in sparring) and they just cant 'cope' with that.

Not being able to cope in a friendly arena is ok, not being able to cope in a not friendly arena is a whole different thing.








(and I am aware that someone right now is thinking 'but being punched in the head bears no relation to the street'. I would agree. I would then feel the need to point out that being punched in the head in a MA class is a better way to prepare for being punched in the head on the street, than pretending to be punched in the head in a MA class.)

 

I spent years in 'full contact' training - the continuous punches to the head now mean:

Continuous expensive dental treatment.
Bad vision.
Headaches.
Tinnitus.
Forgetfulness.
Occasional speech difficulties.

I was also stabbed in the head and eye with 'real weapons' training and demos.

With injuries to the body I could write a book.

I would now definitely urge caution.

 

Steve - agree 100% - a friend of mine had his life literally ruined in a 'controlled' karate sparring bout when he was a teenager - his pancreas was ruptured and burst. He has spent the subsequent 20+ years having operations, is diabetic and has a very low quality of life all thanks to one well-placed kick.

Great 'training' eh? :cry:

Liokault - the whole stance you are taking is entirely subjective tbh
- making sweeping commands to everyone else on the forum (ie "I'm not going to discuss how you all never get injured, and any one who says that you don't need to get injured is not really training") is not going to cut it m8 - it's a cop out, not to mention it sounds quite childish too - a simple IMO or ime will do, just like it does for everyone else - that way you are discussing rather than dictating, yes?
If not, then there's no point is there?
So on the subject of self-defence training... I've been punched in the head loads of times tbh - it taught me nothing much - only that I'd rather not be!
It's more important to be focussed, efficient, accept you're likely to get hit, get past that, and apply something much more painful and imobilising while the other guy wastes his time swinging about at your head imho - that way you might get a black eye or cut lip - he goes bye-byes or to hospital - fair trade imo

Visage - you and I both know you have successfully applied Taiji methods (trained safely I might add) against difficult customers at your workplace - I guess that doesn't count tho, as it's indoors rather than on "da s+r33+"...

So IMHO...

This 'street' everyone talks about is the biggest source of BS on internet MA forums!
Walking in that 'street' are a huge variety of people, only a tiny fraction of which are most of us ever likely to get into a physical confrontation with imo/e (obviously bouncers and the like are different, but Steve Rowe and Middleway have got that covered imho so I won't go there )
Out of that tiny fraction there is a vast range of ability, attitude and committment on offer - drunks, thugs, muggers, angry people, junkies, chavs, 'streetfighters' (whatever the heck that actually means lol), undisciplined martial artists, gangs, psychopaths, dumb chancers the list could go on and on....
...to attempt to categorize one foolproof methodology for dealing with all of them is just silly imho - "different strokes for different folks" (or "different blows for different joes" perhaps? lol)
Most conflicts can be avoided, talked out of, or run away from - only a tinier fraction need ever require an actual fight, and then the response should be measured by what is being 'offered' (not least from a legal perspective - reasonable force and all) - this is imo the whole basis of traditional Taijiquan methodology rather than the modern machismo variants that require a "no retreat, no surrender" philosophy that is frankly, more about people who watch too many movies and have no patience than any 'reality' that is being claimed ime/o... lol
When we start making these "it's this way and I refuse to entertain any other idea..." type statements we are actually creating the level of violence we are likely to experience in the mythical 'street' - think about that for a minute - we create it before it even happens with that attitude. Some silly little chav who's failed to get his leg over or trying to impress his mates starts goading us and we go nuclear - result? Suddenly we're having a fight with all his mates as well or the blades and bottles come out - we created that because we believed in the myth of the 'street' - then it's reinforced by that experience and we continue to create it. Again and again...
Why do you think street violence seems to be getting worse? Go to your local video store and take a look or play a few video games and see how you feel - watch the TV, the news etc. We're saturated with fantasy violence presented as reality or worse, real violence simplified and spun until it seems normal. I'll happily give a fiver to anyone who reads this, runs straight to their window and sees a streetfight happening! No way. But if you believe the Sun, MAP or the TV or whatever that's exactly what you should be seeing...
I'm not being a killjoy, I love action movies and stuff but I know it's all fantasy. Most people just absorb it and let it shape their thinking without thinking about it imho
So when it comes to MA instruction the simple choice for me becomes: do I want to add to the violence of the world or take away from it?

Your choice
:Angel:

 

Full contact training or getting old

I can count on the fingers of one hand how ofton I get hit in the head with any real force in training. This is because when you train you get used to the idea that being hit is a bad thing and you train to avoid it.

I'm not sure what your fullcontact entails Steve, but as your a Karate man I'm guessing that its Karate (?). This gives little room to avoid standing and trading blows. We tend to teach people the wonders of the clinch (for want of a better term). People soon realise that if they are 'winning' in the clinch, they are not getting hit in the head.

Caution is always good.

 

I'm just not about to get into any "I'm going to walk home safe tonight, because I have been to a RBSD seminar and they showed my a c00l wrist lock, I didn't have to sweat and no one tried to hurt me" conversations.

By all means train in a totally risk free manner. In fact I encourage every one to do so, just don't think that you are ready to 'handle' (for want of a better term) yourself the first time that someone doesn't stop that punch short of your head.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that my way is the only way. I am not saying that my way will prepare you for the str33t. In fact I will go as far as saying that I don't train self defence anymore. What I am saying is that you should be honest about what you do and what your really getting out of it.

Did you really read the thread, or do you just jump in and post randomly from your own agenda?

 

It could have been old age but I forgot what I posted

In the early days most of my training was in Deptford/Peckham area and in rooms over pubs - it was more streetfighting than any MA, probably the early RBSD from the '70's. I did suffer from a LOT of major injury and I really suffer for it now, even if someone would have warned me in those days, I wouldn't have listened - too many hormones! We studied Karate, Judo, Atemi Jitsu and a variety of weapons, edged and non edged. Working in the security trade meant that I also got to 'test' a lot of what we were doing.

Finding the balance in training is important, we tend to role play more in our karate classses to get as 'real' as possible without injury if possible we also do extensive pushing hands and reflex drills. In taiji the 'wall' peng pushing, pushing hands and application work training suffices. As I still teach the security trade extensively, I get regular feedback from them.

I urge caution because it's so easy to be injured for life. There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. I have continued after broken teeth, broken fingers, toes, ribs, cheekbones and so on. I have pushed my meniscus back in after it was protruding several inches after dislocation and tried to carry on. But now every injury aches and comes back to haunt me.

My advice is that the first self defence is of your own health and sanity. Old age can be a long and painful process if you are not careful in your fleeting youth.

I'm lucky because I'm still there and enjoying martial arts long after all my old friends have long gone - many from ill health and injury not helped by their training practice.

 

Instead of going for the cheap shot, if you listened to a man with twice your experience in a wider variety of scenario's, Liokault you might learn something new.... (just a thought lol) ....because he's probably forgotten more than you'll ever learn m8 lol

According to your logic: "you aren't really training then, are you?" ...Seriously tho, surely anybody knows that being hit is bad, avoiding is good, don't they? Am I being naive? I always dodge and evade rather than go in unless I can't avoid it - I call that an intelligent and healthy attitude to conflict myself...

I got into a big row about this before; ...so can you just clarify what you mean by a 'clinch' - do you mean grabbing and enveloping your opponent and containing him with your arms as in boxing etc or something a tad more specialised - I apply jie jin this way, with a variety of arm and hand placements - but I don't consider it the same as an MT or boxing 'clinch'... is that what you were getting at by: "for want of a better term"

Course it is. What is it we're always arguing about then? Because you and I seem to agree about most things except competitions and sparring with gloves over all other forms of training (as opposed to as well as - if it suits your purpose)

And well you shouldn't, because that would be an insult to everyone's intelligence, especially yours!! - nobody here has advocated such an approach...
Personally, I have done all sorts of short courses through my old work, and in my own time, and the main problem with all these workshops, seminars, short courses etc for most participants is failure to train the techniques regularly afterwards and keep them fresh. Theory is no good if you can't apply it without forethought and stay in the actual moment you are in imo. Basically if you have to think about your defence at all or for more than a split second at least - you're dead or injured imo/e

Sparring training etc is not much more of a guarantee imo - 'reality' and 'training' are two different things unless you go and pick real fights as your principal training method... lol It's healthy never to feel 100% confident anyway otherwise you can slip out of the moment into dreamland and get seriously splattered. Plenty of great boxers and MAists have been badly beaten in streetfights - it's just the different context that causes the fatal pause...

Hallelujah! There is no "one way" - I'm sure there's a gag in there while we're talking 'da str33t'...lol

Housekeys, jacket, wallet and shoes is my usual preparation for the str33t.....

Okay can you give us a clearer explanation of what you mean by 'self defence' so I can understand that statement? (To me there's no other valid reason to practice martial arts, but it's only an opinion )

Agreed. And thankyou for an intelligent and sensible set of comments while we're being civilised...

Ooops - spoke too soon
The second one, of course
:Angel: