Tai chi history

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by cloudz, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Huh? Are you suggesting I mistreated Dhalsim-on by calling him out on how flimsy his arguments were or how crappy/unrelated the sources he cited where?

    If I follow your argument you seem to think that merely mentioning academic credentials and research is enough for me to fully endorse whatever you are saying. That's not the case. Dhalsim-on provided a shed load of sources and he made many appeals to academic credentials so shouldn't I have been his biggest fan? Or what about Fire-quan in many of the debates I had with him he brought up his academic background and frequently cited 'social science' research but I don't recall that I ever really found such presentations compelling. In fact I'm pretty sure in discussions with Dhalsim-on and Fire-quan I was the one who was arguing that academic credentials do not necessarily make your arguments correct. Merely mentioning academic sources is not enough for me to buy whatever you are saying. You are missing my point.

    I don't buy Bruce's version because he hasn't presented much evidence and I don't buy your version because it seems to primarily rely on accepting traditional accounts. I do however think that Bruce's position which seems to be skeptical of the historical veracity of traditional accounts and made reference to academic research represents a better approach... whether he actually has done the research is another issue. Anyway, if you look back at the beginning of all this I said...

    I stand by this because this is a discussion about history and to get an accurate historical picture is something that requires detailed unbiased research. Why this is so controversial is beyond me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  2. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I am only going to respond briefly as I am way to busy to seriously study the twists of this thread.

    Firstly, I believe Cloudz has marshalled his arguments and material as well as can be asked of e.g. the linked article at the end of his last post. What this means is that Cloudz is arguing a lot more from a rational perspective, rather than from a purely shoot-from-the-hip emmotive perspective.

    Secondly, whist academic citations may offer a degree of healthy scepticism, these citations need to be backed up by real-world experience and understanding. The clearest 'evidence' are the surviving artefacts of the many Yang lineage forms and probably somewhat less the applications (as there are probably not many practictioners with a detailed understanding), their referencability in classics texts and various academic citations - to do so requires significant real world experience i.e. you have to have some martial applicable experience to be able to interpret these artifacts and reference them to texts (clasics and academic research based.)

    Lastly, as expounded mostly by PB, factual evidence is more or less impossible, but well researched material presented with logicality and appropriate chronology with consistent probabilistic interpretation to back up the credibility, is more or less possible along the lines of Mr Docherty's books and articles.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  3. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Good summary embra!
     
  4. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I guess I need to know whether Cloudz et al have read my posts and made use of the citations I have provided. How about you, Paladen? Have you read these sources....or any others?

    No, frankly, I make no use of "oral traditions". Its track record for accuracy is suspect and its role as a form of marketing is well-known.

    Now...I ask again...Cloudz....did you or did you not read the material that I provided as resources? I'm afraid that you can take aim at the messenger all you like, but the message remains the same.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  5. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    It's Palden professor, and I have read your posts and made an effort (so far unsuccessful) to substantiate your citations on Yang Lu Chan not teaching Tai Chi as a martial art.

    The message does in fact remain the same, inaccurate and unsupported, and the messenger, having contradicted himself, and blithely ignored relevant inquiries, has shot himself in the foot, relieving others of the need to take aim at him.



    .
     
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Fair enough, but you are ignoring a very vital fact. The matter we are discussing occurred during YANG's lifetime while the artifacts have be subject to the self-interest of numbers of people since YANGS death. So.......for instance lets consider the following.

    With the organization of the NANKING GUOSHO Institute, the Chinese Republic sought to develop a representative Chinese martial practice. This included the consolidation of numbers of Chinese practices, including YANG TC. At that time there is no reason a Cannofist form could not have been incorporated in the system of TAI CHI practices under consideration. Since the tenor of the times was to instill healthy practices using martial traditions there may not have been much choosiness on the part of the organizers. People who learned this approach----and there many---- could have as easily represented that they were teaching what their teacher taught them and they wouldn't have been wrong. However, they would not have been teaching what YANG taught, or perhaps, even what Yang used in his confrontations.

    The uncurrent of this discussion, from my side, is that today's practitioners are far too easily seduced by the stories they have heard and ask far too many questions. As I pointed out in my other post this is not unlike practitioners in any other MA where the fantasy makes a far better marketing tool than the truth. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well, since you haven't read the material, and seem to only pay the least hint of interest in my posts, you really aren't in a place to make that determination now, are you.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  8. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    Read the material (which is different from seeing how it substantiates your claims), read your posts in their entirety whether they were interesting and worthwhile, or not, and am in the perfect place to make that determination.

    I have posed multiple direct questions to you in the course of this thread and you've ignored all of them, so your snarky tone is just more of the same bull manure you've been spewing.

    Good day.


    .
     
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    I am simply to busy to get into the detailed debate (or more like verbal knife stabbings) of this thread, which is becoming distorted by quite a lot of line noise - to the point that the signal is becoming invisible - which is a shame, as the arguments of interesting subject matter could be very usefully marshalled to get nearer to that elusive 'truth'. At this juncture the content is like a cross between bad LSD and programming in Perl i.e. one sore head.

    So once again, maybe try to concentrate on presenting the arguments and material in as concise and readable form, without resorting to 'have you read such and such', 'i dont like your tone' etc ? - then maybe we can see the arguments and material in a more cogent form, to form a valid standpoint - where will not all agree - that is the nature of a discussion like this.

    Otherwise its going to descend into irrational Fire-quan-esque tones (I did used to find FQ quite amusing some times, I have to admit.)
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Gees.....I see the love of Kool-Aid is not restricted to the United States! But, hey!! I love a good story just like anyone else. Lets see, so YANG didn't ACTUALLY teach the IMPERIAL HOUSEHOLD. In fact he doesn't seem to have been involved with the Imperial Houshold at all except that he taught Prince Duan. Apparently he taught ONE guy, Prince Duan, his housekeeper and a Manchu general. Gee....my mistake. Well, at least I have one more guy to tag to the ol' "I-taught-very-important- people"-theme. Of course, we can't actually DOCUMENT any of this, and we don't know who changed what or when. But Hey! I DO love a good story.

    No, Cloudz, you won't have me saying I was mistaken. BTW: Does that "man-up" drivel actually work on the kids that you know? How does that work exactly? Somebody says something you don't like so you challenge their manhood and they collapse in a blubbering mass, right? :rolleyes:

    Getting back to the story, I couldn't seem to find the place where each and every practitioner beats all comers. Since YANG was teaching in the Prince's mansion, I'll bet YANG was beating some pretty important people, right? I bet nobody remembers their names, do they. Figures.

    Or how about that timeline. Lets see....this guy was 11 in 1966 so he was born in 1955. Yet his teacher's teacher was the student of YANG LU CHAN, right? Don't suppose anyone remembers these guys names either, right?

    Or how about that material. Lets do the Math....... There's ten routines and approximately 19 original methods in the 108 movements of the LAO JIA YI LU. So YANG could have jerked his students around recombining those 19 methods as much as he wanted. Who was going to tell him different.

    But the part I like the best is that YANG TC went through some of the most tumultuous times in the history of the Chinese people and never waivered or varied. Think about that..... the Fall of the Qing Dynasty. The Chinese Nationalist Government. The Chinese Civil War. WWII. The Chinese Civil War (Part Two). The Great Leap Forward. The Cultural Revolution. And here we are teaching EXACTLY the same art as YANG Luchun taught before the Boxer Rebellion. Wow. You really have to hand it to those YANG people. That must be SOME art. :rolleyes::confused::rolleyes:

    BTW: No, the guy isn't a "fake". He's a salesman with a product to market. What did you think he was gonna say? Have you ever actually read any of the history behind the evolution of the Chinese MA? You don't think he was actually gonna tell the truth, do you? Gees....get a clue, will ya?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yeah..fine. Big Surprise.

    Just say it walking, will ya.
     
  12. embra

    embra Valued Member


    Sorry Bruce, just to clarify a few points.

    Story seduction, yeah I can buy into that - there is plenty of it around, but not asking questions? - surely not - just believe what the 'Master' tells you/ feeds you with? Maybe Im not picking you up correctly here.

    MA fantasy == great marketing tool - cant disagree with this. 'Truth' - well thats difficult to get to - witness the verbal asaults in this thread i.e. perceptions of Truth are highly subjective, and rarely (if ever) objective, especially when based on historical interpretations from folklore and academic research. In my mind, there is no absolute 'Truth', but you can approach it in a kind of fuzzy way - unless talking about questions like 'is the Pope Catholic?', 'do cats like milk?' etc.

    In my summary,

    History != Mathematics

    History is interpretive. Mathematics is very close to absolution (but not quite e.g. proof of Fermats Last Theorm, took a damm long time to be 'proven' and accepted by contemporary peer group of Prof Wiles.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  13. embra

    embra Valued Member

    In an effort to get this interesting thread onto a more coherrant basis, I am taking it upon myself to try to marshall the material and arguments more coherrently. So (trying to bring rationality, order and clarity to the topic(s)) ....

    @Bruce (1) - "Marrow of a Nation" - indeed this does look like an interesting read (Amazon.) At this juncture I am to skint to purchase it. Maybe you can summarise the key arguments from this and other sources you have quaoted. I understand the basic thrust i.e. Yang Lu Chan taught Callinsthetics (spelling?), not Martial applicability - please correct me if I pick this up incorrectly.

    @Cloudz (1) - I understnd (please correct me if wrong/not quite there etc) that you are expressing the view that Yang Lu Chan was the central pillar in establishing TCC as a MA to the Beging court - more or less along the lines that Mr Docherty takes in his writings (which I find interesting but sometimes difficult to read and digest.) This being said (where Doc casts doubt on the authenticity of Chen family claims - where the arguments seem to hinge on who taught what to whom in the Chen Village), we are establishing that TCC as a defined art started with YLC, along the lines of this 'popular story ' (cutting'n'pasting from wikipedia land here folks):-
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When Yang Lu Chan first taught in Yung Nien, his art was referred to as Mien Quan (Cotton Fist) or Hua Quan (Neutralising Fist). Whilst teaching at the Imperial Court, Yang met many challenges, some friendly some not. But he invariably won and in so convincingly using his soft techniques that he gained a great reputation.

    Many who frequented the imperial households would come to view his matches. At one such gathering in which Yang had won against several reputable opponents, the scholar Ong Tong He was present. Inspired by the way Yang moved and executed his techniques, Ong felt that Yang's movements and techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the principles of Taiji (太極, the philosophy). Ong wrote for him a matching verse:

    “ Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world,
    a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heros.


    Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan.[11]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Lu-ch'an - to read the cited references etc
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    @Bruce (2)
    Are you taking the Chen line, or something else? i.e the Canon Fist being an example of Chen TCC - used in your arguments/summary as evidence. Are you arguing that TCC (Yang or otherwise) does or does not have a martial context beyond what has been introduced by Chen? - by virtue of YLC being the central figure in the linkage of Yang to Chen (which ever prejudice/standpoint/whatever one takes).

    @Anyone - There is the chen story, Mr Docherty's interpretations, posssibly Bruce's - the thread is just not coherrant enough yet to tell. Folk have told me that there is effective 'old' Yang TCC that does not contain Chen TCC, although not many folk practise it now (for whatever reason.) There is supposed to be one very effective Yang stylist in my city but I dont know of their wherabouts.

    From the thread's context its not to easy to see what is beig argued for and against.

    @Cloudz (2) (a little bit orthogonal to the mainbody of the thread) Is the 13 posture boxing you posted on earlier, the 13 tactics of Peng, Cai, Ji, Kao, Lu, Lie, An, Zhou; and the the elements Metal, Fire, Wood, Earth and Water? This being the case it is digetsible and consistent with my interpretations of folks' teaching.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    No, I'm not saying you mistreated him. I was suggesting that it is odd that you chose to back Bruce who is basically presenting a conspiracy theory - in my opinion.

    We are talking about a history of about 150 years - which in relative terms is not that long. 4 generations for example is the difference between your Grandad and your sons (if or when you have one).. The 4th generation of Yang family Yang Sau Cheung was teaching people Yang family martial arts in Hong Kong at least up till the Late seventies (not exactly sure when he passed on.)

    The first three generations of Yang family were professional martial arts instrucors in Beijing - it is how they made their living and what they are known for. Not only that - but they (somehow) managed to earn themselves quite a repuation in the process.

    Bruce is saying that Yang Lu Chan didn't teach taiji as martial arts.. but something else.

    ?

    So if Bruce is right - then either it is a huge conspiracy.. or the Yangs were some kind of magicians who fooled a lot of people - including fellow martial artists and some of their disciple who were military men.

    No, it seemed that you were endorsing Bruce for those reasons.

    ok, that sounds familiar...

    'my version',
    doesn't just accept traditional accounts. whilst we can accept certain things or they can be checked - because we aren't going that far back, Martial arts lineages and families keep records too - not jusdt hiostorians and Academics.. Now sure everything can be manipulated and tampered. So a certain amount of checking helps, that is were cross referencing certain accounts comes in useful. If different sources give details that match then that is corroberation. Birth and death records can be checked - to see if such a person may or may not have existed for example.


    As well as traditional accounts, we also have material evidence. From the third and fourth generation we do actually have pictures and video. There is a famous video for example of Yang Sau Cheung performing tai chi. There are other video available of fourth generation Wu and Yang. From the Third generation there is photographic evidence. There are pictures of Yang Cheng Fu - the Grandson of Yang Lu Chan demonstrating MARTIAL APPLICATIONS!

    And these have been published no less.

    On top of that we have a HUGE body of material being practiced today to cross reference. We can do that across lines and we can check against the video and photographic evidence from the fourth and third generations.

    For the first two generations it is harder sure - for that we have to rely on oral transmission to fill in some pictures for us. And this we can cross reference with all the rest of the material I have outlined already.

    Let me give you an example from the Wu side of things as I have more recently been learning and researching on Wu style.

    Quan You (family name later changed to Wu) was a student and disciple of Yang Lu Chan and Yang Ban Hou (representing first two generation of Yang).
    Quan You will represent the first generation of Wu style.

    Quan You was Manchurian and a military man - his family can prove he existed and who he was. It is not in question. What's good about this is that Quan Yu has two main branches splitting off of him at representing the second generation of Wu style. He taught Wang Maozhai ( I think that's his name!) who went on the teach and this forms the Northern Wu style.

    Shanghai Wu represents basically the family style that his son Wu Chien Chuan (second generation Wu) disseminated. The art was also passed on through to Hong Kong etc.

    As of now there are living representaives (disciples) in China that represent the fourth generation.

    I myself currently learning through an instructor that learnt directly from such a disciple. This man was a disciple of Mah Yueh Liang who was the son in law and disciple of Wu Chien Chuan. I have also studied under the Hong Kong branch here in the UK.

    I have compared this stuff to the Northern Wu style still practiced .. And sure stylistacilly it is a little different. The systems contain some different training methods sure, some different variations perhaps in application.. But what i can tell you is that they are taught as martial arts. And the martial art is the same - it is tai chi chuan..

    From comparing and contrasting these two branches - you most certainly CAN get a very good idea of what Quan You taught and therefore what he learnt fom the Yangs.. Sure maybe he did make a few modifications too. But we already know there is a stylistic difference between Yang and Wu style.

    This is a bit of a hallmark of tai chi. It adapts to the person - or rather the person over time adapts it to themselves, their body, their preferences - in form, in application, in exercise etc.

    What remains is the principles underlying everything (including application) and the thirteen postures boxing method.

    It's not a matter of which is the better approach. We should all use both these approaches where possible in my opinion. And I think a certain picture will emerge. I'm sure certain efforts have and are being made..

    I'm certainly very open to that CK. However the 'schorlarly detail' as you put it on the history of the Yangs seems to be eluding us right now. So in the meantimes we have to make do with what we have


    Ok fine, I'll certainly try to be as objective as possible..
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    WOW.. Really Bruce you got all that from that interview.. I mean you take that as the full story of what went on and who and what YLC taught ?

    You now know all that from reading that account of that lineage - There is more than one Imperial Yang lineage you see.. So he is simply giving an account of where HIS lineage came from and some backround. That's the way it read to me at least. I'll give it another look though..

    I certainly can't say that that is the full story, and I don't recall Prince Duan being mentioned in person - but I'll have to read it again.

    To be honest you sound a bit desperate and babbling here.

    Sure Bruce, i like a good story too you know. I also like martial arts and tai chi chuan. Seeing as i have learnt it from Yang and Wu sources including those from family lines.

    I'm pretty amazed that anyone can claim the Yangs never taught a martial art.
    Maybe you can tell me where the martial arts I've learnt come from. I mean, It is the least you can do .. oh yeag right, from liars cheats and fabricators - is that right ?

    It would be nice if you can be upstanding about things.. Is that better ?

    Of course Bruce - It's ALL one big conspiracy for you to get your teeth into. I suppose the reputation of the early Yangs came from nothing? They were professional MA teachers yet didn't teach martial arts - so they got paid for nothing.

    And what have you backed up your assertions with so far..

    Oh yeah - NOTHING!

    Well we could attempt to find out, couldn't we ?

    I'm not sure what your point is. Yang i believe modified what he learnt from Chen style with his home town martial art of Hong Quan. he created routines to teach as he saw fit. Dude - he was Yang Lu Chan- he was awesome and did what he wanted..lol



    No it changed plenty, there are lots af varied routines called Yang style.. pay attention. And FYI, yes it is a truly wonderful martial art and training system. maybe you should try it some time.

    Sure Bruce.. I'll do my best to get a clue sure. Maybe try giving one eh. other than everyones lying and it's some big conspiracy that the Yangs taught martial arts..
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    My own particular investment in the discussion has painfully little to do with TAI CHI CHUAN perse and probably even less to do with YANG TCC. The KWAN to which I belong has, as one of its "Four Pillars" the activity of "Research". My own personal research centers on the original practice of KWON BOP (lit."fist methods") as found in the various Korean MA manuals from 1610 down to 1795, ending with the MU YE TOBO TONG JI. As most students of Korean Martial History will know, the KWON BOP of this "lineage" was transmitted to Korea through the adoption of the training manual and methods (see: JI XIAO SHIN SHU). There is an inter-relationship among the Boxing Canon of General Qi (see: JI XIAO SHIN SHU; Chapt 14), KWON BOP; TAIZU CHANG CHUAN and CHEN TAI CHI CHUAN (see: SZYMANSKI) wherein examination among these resources allows for insights on an almost reciprocal basis. That can be fodder for another thread. But it begs the question what does this have to do with YANG TC? Here's the connection.

    Ugly as it is to report, there was a significant level of collusion between Koreans and the Japanese during the Occupation, though you will never get anyone in Korea to admit to it. Part of that collaboration included the use of Koreans to work the Manchurian Railway. One notable on the payroll was HWANG KI of later TANGSOODO/SOOBAHKDO fame.

    During the duties of HWANG KI's employment he was able to train in TAI CHI and Long Fist material and later purported to meld this material with that of Karate books he came across as well. The question has always been, "Where did Hwang Ki get his TCC training from?" This is because it was VERY apparent that what he knew (demonstrated) and what he REPORTED that he knew simply didn't jibe.

    Enter Chinese history.

    The Chinese have eaten a lot of Foreign "crap" and had begun to actually believe the "sick man of asia" propaganda about themselves. My guess is that this was why the triumphs of HUO Yuanjia were such a monumental event to the Chinese.*Shanghai’s “Pure Martial Calisthenics School (“Jingwu Ticao Xuexiao”) was opened in 1910 as the first modern organization to emphasize training in indigenous Chinese martial arts. Martial Arts, having been disregarded by both governmental and private agencies as a non-viable option for Physical Education, was promoted by this organization and its founder, the champion Chinese boxer, HUO Yuanji. Having left Tientsin in 1907 for Shanghai, this MIZONGQUAN or "Lost Track Fist" stylist was well-known for having taken up the cause of Chinese nationalism by participating in very public challenge matches with foreigners. Trading on this reputation and securing funding from well-connected Chinese businesses, he founded the JINGWU Association in March, 1909. The organization spread rapidly through the urban areas of China, where once disparaged itinerant teachers from the rural areas were now much sought after for their boxing and wrestling instruction. (For his part, HUO Yuanji would not live to know the great success of his organization, having died in August of that same year, reputedly from poison.) With this organization it became apparent that the Chinese did not have to look outside of itself for its own take on Physical Culture. Further, it became plain that in order for a country to have a sense of itself, the Chinese needed to use those tools and see them work on strengthening the battered spirit of the country. This is why the Chinese government directed that military drill would be taught in all Chinese academies, not only to raise the standard of Physical Education but to also raise the level of national consciousness for the Chinese nation. And what the government did for its academy's cadets, the JINGWU did for the average Chinese on the street.

    Iknow, I know.....you want to know that this has to do with YANG TCC. I'm getting there.

    Though a success by most measures, the Jing-wu Athletic Association fell on hard times. Though it has spread to most Chinese urban areas and across large parts of Southeast Asia, including Vietnam, Indonesia and Malaysia , the association lost its financial support and fell prey to the changes in political climate in China . In 1928 the Chinese nationalist government under the GUOMINDANG took over their role and eclipsed the Jingwu Association.Though of unclear origins, the term GUOSHU, or “national skills”, becomes the label of choice to identify the product of the governments efforts to unify and standardize the Chinese arts. Located at the Central Guoshu Academy in Nanjing , this institution is the product of the Guoshu Research academy decreed in March of 1928 by national decree #174. After initial attempts to reconcile Wudang and Shaolin traditions fail, this approach is abandoned in July, 1928. Responsibilities are then placed with Ma Liang and Tang Hao to reconcile some 161 known types of Chinese martial arts.*

    In February, 1929 Ma Liang and Tang Hao, in cooperation with a number of martial arts individuals, produce a series of “Organizational Outlines” which will be used at various administrative levels including school, village, county and district for GUOSHU schools. With this level of organization, branch schools reached thirty by 1930, and over 300 by 1934. As success builds, the efforts are fueled by contributions by regional martial arts masters who add their support to the national effort and find a satisfying venue for representing their skills and knowledge. In Nanjing the central school continued to operate two programs; a 3-year program providing instruction in several martial arts styles and 44 hours of course each week, and a training program providing free training and academic instruction to those not accepted to the Instructors program. Unfortunately, after only three generations, World War II starts in 1937 A.D., and all training is discontinued due to the war.

    It is more than a little likely that the HWANG KI I mentioned earlier may have availed himself of one of these local gyms which were known to teach YANG TC and CHANG CHUAN (Long Fist Boxing). He then assumed that the TCC he learned was the same as the CHEN TCC which bears a resemblance to the KWON BOP I mentioned earlier.

    Now........Here's my question. Which story do you think carries more veracity:

    a.) "Teacher says that our form of YANG TCC was taught in the Imperial Household and that we have a lot of powerful and influential people in our heritage"

    or

    b.) Documented histories report that what we call Chinese martial traditions were organized and structured in the 20th Century and what we have today in YANG TCC is nothing more than a spin-off from that effort.
    Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  17. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    "It's more than a little likely that the Hwang Ki mentioned earlier may have availed himself etc."

    Likely he may have? This is a documented history?

    So your whole argument comes down to a Korean railroad worker who spent a few years in China, and may have studied at a school that was "known to teach" Yang style Tai Chi Chuan (or something that bore that label). So, though you say, "The question has always been, Where did Hwang Ki get his TCC training?" You formulate a speculative answer to that question, and offer it as solidly researched fact?

    Further, you write, "Because it was VERY apparent that what he knew (demonstrated) and what he REPORTED that he knew simply didn't jibe." You reach the conclusion that Yang style Tai Chi Chuan wasn't effective as a martial art.

    Rather than conclude that Hwang Ki (itinerant student, with dubious ties to the lineage) didn't grasp the material, you conclude that Yang Lu Chan (lineage founder, who never met aforementioned student) didn't teach martial arts.

    Really?

    China's a big country and I don't believe you, or anyone else, thinks that the Jing Wu Assoc., or later governmental efforts, pulled every style, lineage or teacher into a cohesive national association, and standardized, codified and regulated them. According to you, the Jing Wu/Guosho administrative effort peaked at "over 300 schools in 1934". How many MA teachers do you suppose existed in China that fell outside their parameters and oversight? (I'm guessing thousands....tens of thousands, and I'm including the Yang family in those numbers.)

    For the record, I have little concern with Yang's "Imperial" credentials, or the social/cultural/spiritual mythos of the lineage.

    That said, your convoluted story is an epic fail.


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I realized that I missed part of the quote and thought I would "man-up" about that. Please note bold and Italicized comments below.

    (clip)
    ".........................
    I know, I know.....you want to know that this has to do with YANG TCC. I'm getting there.

    Though a success by most measures, the Jing-wu Athletic Association fell on hard times. Though it has spread to most Chinese urban areas and across large parts of Southeast Asia, including Vietnam, Indonesia and Malaysia , the association lost its financial support and fell prey to the changes in political climate in China . In 1928 the Chinese nationalist government under the GUOMINDANG took over their role and eclipsed the Jingwu Association. Though of unclear origins, the term GUOSHU, or “national skills”, becomes the label of choice to identify the product of the governments efforts to unify and standardize the Chinese arts. Centered at the Nanking Central Guoshu Academy in Nanjing , this institution is the product of the Guoshu Research academy decreed in March of 1928 by national decree #174. Among the masters invited to participate were GU Zhou-Chang, Won Lai-shen, FU Chang-song, WONG Shao-Chou and LI Shan-Wu. They specialized in Northern Shaolin Nature Division, Pa Qua Division, Li Far Spear, and TAN TWE Division respectively. Also influencing the Central Kuo Shu Institute were Geer Dar Hai (Ta Chan Division), Don Ien-Gieh (Yang's Tai Chi Chuan) and Shun Yu-Fan (Lo Han Division).........This diverse style has popularly come to be known as "Long Fist". Source: Shaolin Long Fist Kung-fu; YANG Jwing-ming & Jeffery Bolt pgs 7-8After initial attempts to reconcile Wudang and Shaolin traditions fail, this approach is abandoned in July, 1928. Responsibilities are then placed with Ma Liang and Tang Hao to reconcile some 161 known types of Chinese martial arts.*After initial attempts to reconcile Wudang and Shaolin traditions fail, this approach is abandoned in July, 1928. Responsibilities are then placed with Ma Liang and Tang Hao to reconcile some 161 known types of Chinese martial arts.*

    In February, 1929 Ma Liang and Tang Hao, in cooperation with a number of martial arts individuals, produce a series of “Organizational Outlines” which will be used at various administrative levels including school, village, county and district for GUOSHU schools. With this level of organization, branch schools reached thirty by 1930, and over 300 by 1934. As success builds, the efforts are fueled by contributions by regional martial arts masters who add their support to the national effort and find a satisfying venue for representing their skills and knowledge. In Nanjing the central school continued to operate two programs; a 3-year program providing instruction in several martial arts styles and 44 hours of course each week, and a training program providing free training and academic instruction to those not accepted to the Instructors program. Unfortunately, after only three generations, World War II starts in 1937 A.D., and all training is discontinued due to the war.

    It is more than a little likely that the HWANG KI I mentioned earlier may have availed himself of one of these local gyms which were known to teach YANG TC and CHANG CHUAN (Long Fist Boxing). He then assumed that the TCC he learned was the same as the CHEN TCC which bears a resemblance to the KWON BOP I mentioned earlier.

    Now........Here's my question. Which story do you think carries more veracity:

    a.) "Teacher says that our form of YANG TCC was taught in the Imperial Household and that we have a lot of powerful and influential people in our heritage"

    or

    b.) Documented histories report that what we call Chinese martial traditions were organized and structured in the 20th Century and what we have today in YANG TCC is nothing more than a spin-off from that effort.
    Thoughts?
    ............................................."

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2010
  19. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    The missing part of the quote still does nothing to support your contentions, and is the least of things you might want to "man up" about.

    The fact some central administrative efforts solicited input from one of Yangs's students actually undercuts your contention that Yang TCC was spun off of their movement.

    No does it address your wildly speculative theories about Hwang Ki, and where he might have learned some meager shred of Tai Chi Chuan. If he spent his time in China working on a railroad crew he probably didn't spend time in any one place long enough to study martial arts, and likely picked up the little bit he may have learned from one of his co-workers.

    Keep it up with the stories though, you're very amusing.


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    You really don't have much to offer, do you.

    Nobody said anything about China. The area under discussion regarding Hwang Ki was Manchuria---Manchuko to be specific. You do know the difference among the three, right?
    And if you have an understanding of how the Manchurian railway was managed you would know that particular crews worked out of particular centers, just like railways all over the world. It would have been a very small challenge for Hwang Ki to study out of one of the gyms sanctioned originally by the Chinese government and allowed to continue by the Japanese. Here's a quote from a "public domain" source you and Cloudz seem to fancy so well.
    "......
    In May 1935 Hwang Kee began working for the Korean railroad company which allowed him to travel. In May 1936 he met a Chinese Kung Fu master named Yang, Kuk Jin. Kee trained with Yang until 1946. At that time China was experiencing a communist revolution. The training consisted of Seh Bop (postures), Bo Bop (steps), Ryun Bop (conditioning) and Hyung (Forms) with their applications.
    ......."
    Source: WIKIPEADIA: "SOO BAHK DO"

    I was given to believe that you were reasonably well-informed about MA. Apparently I was mistaken. You really don't see to have much to offer the discussion at all.
     

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