Tai chi history

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by cloudz, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    This is continued from the "tai chi ****ing contest" thread in general discussion.

    Why thank you.

    No, I'm afraid I am not.



    Oh I don't know... How about we begin with some living proof ?

    There is this branch of Imperial Yang style for instance.

    http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/fu-nei-pai-taiji-of-li-zheng/

    I quote:
    Fu Nei Pai Yang style taiji, which traces its lineage back to a Manchu general, Fu Zhou, who studied from Yang Luchan in the mansion of Prince Duan.
    This branch of Yang style taiji is interesting for the wide variety of routines encompassed within the system and the jumping kicks and fajin in some of its routines. For students of the history of Yang style taiji, it would be instructive to compare the sets passed down within this branch with those of Li (Ruidong) style taiji, which also derives its transmission from one of Yang Luchan’s ‘within the mansion’ students, Wang Lanting.



    Then there is the very well known style of Wu style that also had similar beginnings.

    I quote:
    Wu Style Taijiquan founder, Quan You (1834-1902) was from an aristocratic Manchu family that was famous for its martial skills. Quan You Gong was a military officer in a banner camp in Beijing during the Qing Dynasty. At that time, Yang Luchan Gong (1799-1872) was the martial arts instructor in the banner camp, teaching Taijiquan. In the camp, there were many officers studying with Yang Luchan, but only three men, Wan Chun, Ling Shan and Quan You studied diligently and trained hard enough at Taijiquan and to deeply get what Yang Luchan had to teach. They got his true transmission. However, they declined to be listed as Mr. Yang Luchan’s students, and asked to be enrolled as students of his son Yang Banhou (1837-1892). The original reason is given below:
    <snip>
    At that time, Wu Yuxiang’s brother, Wu Ruqing (Wu had two brothers, Wu Chengqing and Wu Ruqing) was a successful candidate for the highest imperial office. In the capitol, he served the Lang. There were comparatively many princes and ministers coming and going. He heard that they were looking for a martial arts teacher and invited Yang Luchan to come to the palace. There Yang taught Taijiquan to Shi Shaonan. He had another student, General Yue Guichen. He was a military man of good family and had heard of Yang. When Yang arrived at the palace to teach Taijiquan, these two men officially asked Yang Luchan to teach them. At this time, there were many princes who came to learn Taijiquan but most did not have perseverance and they did not officially ask to be students. Also, Wang Lanting, a resident of the Lei Palace studied Taijiquan with Yang Gong. At that time Wan Chun, Ling Shan and Quan You were middle grade officers in the Banner camp. Because of their rank, they could not be seen as fellow classmates with nobility. On Yang Luchan’s orders, Quan You is listed as studying under Yang Banhou for three years.


    http://www.smilingtiger.net/QuanYou.html

    There is also the history put forward by the Yang family itself which states that Yang was retained as an instructor at the House of Prince Duan.

    This seems to me like quite a lot of corroboration that Yang taught martial arts at the Imperial court and to members of both the guardsmen and the nobility.

    I didn't mention any members of the Imperial family or the emperor directly at all. Though It is quite likely that Yang LC may have tutored Prince Duan or some other nobility at the House of Prince Duan as this would explain why some of his students (Manchurian gaurdsmen etc.) took formal discipleship with his son Yang Ban Hou.


    No possibility about it. He did, see above


    Are you trying to play semantics ?

    Wouldn't "the Imperial household" be made up of "members of the Imperial household" anyway? What's the distinction you are making exactly and why make it ?

    If you mean a distinction between bannermen & guardsmen (in other words military types) and nobility, princes etc. then I'm not sure how that supports what you originally said or what you are attempting to claim about some kind of two tiered approach taken at gyms across China by the PRC... Whether he tutored member of the royal family or not I don't think makes a huge amount of difference. Though if they were interested in learning martial arts it would seem to make sense that they would in turn learn from the guy who was teaching the men that were appointed to protect them etc.

    It would be easy to fool members of the aristocracy or teach them for physical culture.

    Yangs students/disciples were military types eg. Wang Lanting, Quan You etc. These aren't men that would have accepted 'physical culture' and health practices so readily.. Yang Lu Chan must have been teaching to a good martial standard to attract these guys and the content would certainly have had to have been martial.

    Would you not agree ??

    I don’t know exactly what you are trying to say here. Yang Tcc wasn’t taught publically until Yang Cheng Fu was teaching in the 1920’s and 1930’s I beilive or thereabouts. You seem to be completely ignoring the martial history and reputation of at least two generation of Yangs before Yang Cheng Fu and his brother Yang Shao Hao – who also had a reputation for no nonsense and brutal instruction of martial arts it should be noted.

    I still completely disagree with the statement you made to which I originally replied to. That Yang Tc was originally taught/ presented as health and or physical culture.

    This goes against all the consensus of information available about the Yang family and what, where and who it taught.

    More Yang and Wu family history from Peter Lim - a well respected online source. Note the references to the Imperial court.

    http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/historg6.htm

    http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/historg4.htm
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    That depends.. There doesn't seem to be any record of "tai chi chuan" a martial art that has been discovered to date, that pre dates a certain period. Which is why Sang Fengs martial art is always refered to as thirteen postures boxing. "tai chi chuan" seems to have appeared with the emergence of Yang Lu Chan and his exploits in Beijing, which earned him the nickname of Yang Yu De - "yang the invincible". prior to this Yang Lu Chan had been back in his home town of Yong Nian where his martial arts were known as "cotton fist".


    This ties in with the above I guess. There are various interperatations and stories. This is the one I follow, as you may guess from my signiture.

    Taijiquan Gets Its Name
    When Yang Lu Chan first taught the art in Yung Nien, his art was referred to as 'Mien Quan' or (Cotton Fist) or 'Hua Quan' (Neutralising Fist), it was not yet called Taijiquan. Whilst teaching at the Imperial Court, Yang met many challenges, some friendly some not. But he invariably won and in so convincingly using his soft techniques that he gained a great reputation.
    Many who frequented the imperial households would come to view his matches. At one such gatherings at which Yang had won against several reputable opponents. The scholar Ong Tong He was present and was so impressed by the way Yang moved and executed his techniques and felt that his movements and techniques expressed the physical manifestation of the principles of Taiji (the philosophy) wrote for him a matching verse:
    'Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world,
    a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heros.'
    Thereafter, his art was referred to as Taijiquan and the styles that sprang from his teaching and by association with him was called Taijiquan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I have mentioned a number of things and it seems that its very important for you to characterize YANG Tai Chi as having great recognition among the powerful and elite. I also note that it takes very little to cause you to readily invoke such a connection. This is why I asked the question about the CIA, FBI et al regarding the proclivity of MA instructors to be identified as teaching these well-regarded institutions. However, there is a fine, but important distinction.....and this goes well beyond mere semantics. Actually I think you uncovered this for yourself.

    The matter of teaching a member of the Imperial Household or a member of the Bannermen is not all-together the same as saying that one teaches the Imperial Household OR the Imperial Bannermen. In my own case as a Hapkido instuctor, some of my students are associated with the Naval Training Center at Great Lakes, here in Illinois., yet I would be loath to identify myself as an instuctor to the US Navy. In like manner I have students who are also policemen in the various townships in our area, but would be very reluctant to identify myself as "teaching Illinois Policemen across a large portion of the State."

    If I were compelled to draw a conclusion, I would say that what you are doing is a harmless bit of embellishment. I would hope, however, that you would be careful not to buy-into such representations, heart and soul. You may recall the amount of grief Stanley Hennings drew when he uncovered the historical facts about the much touted Shaolin tradition. In the end, however, it was the "historians" who had been shoveling contrived histories who ended up taking the beating. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well I'm not actually the one embellishing anything. For my first reply to you I drew from what was written on wikepedia page for Yang Lu Chan. Purely for the sake of saving time and ease of replying. They are common descriptions and as I've shown they are not at all that wide of the mark.

    Subsequently I 'm drawing from further material drawn from the web. So which bits exactly do you disagree with and why ?

    Can you point be to the embellishments you are talking about, as it may be as much to do with what you are inadverantly reading into certain turns of phrase and descriptions than it is to do with any actual embellishment I have personally made or done - or anyone else for that matter. In any regard these 'embellishments' were not mine either way.

    If you look at the wiki page I mention you will see were I culled my initial reply from word for word. I think whether I buy into xyz or not is a bit of a moot point. Of course I recognise that CMA is full of stories, some more fanciful than others.. shall we say.

    This is not something I am doing purposefully for your sake or anyone elses. There is a documented history there. And it is pretty obvious that Yang tai chi did gain a certain amount of rep with certain groups of people at a certain time and place. As I said the embellishments aren't mine. Seeing as i am not an Academic and historian I can only draw on certain information in the Public Domain.

    If you have any genuine factual information to share from your research, then you should do so.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    FYI:

    "...............................
    Prince Guo's Mansion in the Qing dynasty: Yunli, the seventeenth son of the Kangxi Emperor, was enfeoffed as Prince Guo at the start of the Yongzhen reign period (1720s). He played a central role in imperial politics and, by the advent of the Qianlong reign in 1736, he was a leading court official. As with other princely mansions, and the sliding scale of princely investiture (except for hereditary titles, princely ranks rose and fell according to many factors from imperial favour to personal ability), this mansion was bestowed upon other princes of rank and renamed a number of times during the later reigns of the Qing. During the Jiaqing reign (1796-1820), it was renamed Prince Duan's Mansion (actually, it should have been called Prince Rui's Mansion, but a copyist's error led to in the name Duan being used instead). After an inconspicuous career, during the 1890s Prince Duan (Zaiyi) became influential at court, and he was a leading conservative opponent to the reforms enacted by the Guangxu Emperor in 1898. As a champion of reaction he found favour with the Empress Dowager Cixi, who resumed power over the court and put a bloody halt to the reforms. Presumed to have plotted against the life of the Guangxu Emperor (Prince Duan is said to have hoped that his eldest son, Puchun, would ascend the throne), but pressured not to act by foreign diplomats and local officials, the prince became a key supporter of the xenophobic Boxer rebels, and he is said to have introduced them to the imperial court. Used as a Boxer base in 1900, Prince Duan's Mansion was razed by the Eight Allied Armies when they invaded the capital and quashed the rebellion. Thus implicated in the disastrous Boxer movement, Prince Duan was exiled to Ili after the failure of the uprising and the ignominious flight of the court. He remained in west China until the fall of the dynasty. Prince Duan is depicted as a craven courtier in the 1963 Hollywood film 55 Days at Peking in which he is played with camp relish by the Australian actor Robert Helpmann
    ........"

    It would seem that Prince Duan was little more than a political firebrand in the name of Chinese identity. This may make him something of a champion of Chinese political causes of the time, but hardly a justification for saying that YANG Lu Chun was instructor to the Imperial family. Wouldn't this be a bit like saying that Judo is the sport of American Presidents simply because Teddy Roosevelt took instruction at one time or another?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    In my original response it says that he was hired by the Imperial family (to teach them and their military Guardsmen). Please look it up and quote me if you are going to straw man me in that way! If he was appointed as a martial instructor at the House of Prince Duan then I don't see how that statement is false. If Prince Duan was technically a member of the Royal Family then it is not an embellishment as you put it. It is a simple description and a general one at that. At least I think that is how it should be read.

    No. How you arrived here is anyones guess to be honest. Did I ever say that Tai chi was the martial art or sport of the Imperial family ?

    I know for example that arts like bagua and baji were and have been very popular in the Imperial court and for Imperial Bodyguards etc.

    It seems to me that you took a few things that I stated and have read way more into it than you really needed to or is appropriate.
     
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK....so where is the evidence that he was "hired by the Imperial Family ( to teach them and their Imperial Guardsmen)..."

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Wait a minute.......hold the phone........ Am I reading this correctly?

    Well I'm not actually the one embellishing anything. For my first reply to you I drew from what was written on wikepedia page for Yang Lu Chan. Purely for the sake of saving time and ease of replying. They are common descriptions and as I've shown they are not at all that wide of themark.

    Apparently your measure for "wide of the mark" varies considerably from mine. You are, of course, aware that contributions to WIKI have been notorious from carrying hidden agendas of all kinds, right? Though there is a lot of watchfulness on that venue the fact is that most requests for citations and validations go unanswered.

    Subsequently I 'm drawing from further material drawn from the web. So which bits exactly do you disagree with and why ?

    (see above)

    Can you point be to the embellishments you are talking about, as it may be as much to do with what you are inadverantly reading into certain turns of phrase and descriptions than it is to do with any actual embellishment I have personally made or done - or anyone else for that matter. In any regard these 'embellishments' were not mine either way.
    If you look at the wiki page I mention you will see were I culled my initial reply from word for word. I think whether I buy into xyz or not is a bit of a moot point. Of course I recognise that CMA is full of stories, some more fanciful than others.. shall we say.
    This is not something I am doing purposefully for your sake or anyone elses. There is a documented history there. And it is pretty obvious that Yang tai chi did gain a certain amount of rep with certain groups of people at a certain time and place. As I said the embellishments aren't mine. Seeing as i am not an Academic and historian I can only draw on certain information in the Public Domain.

    If there is "documented history" then trot-out your documents. Lets see 'em.
    I started to cite my own resources and was advised that maybe I need to use a better sort of reading material. NOW you advise me that you are limited to the "public domain". If we are to be limited in this discussion by your sticking to material in the Public Domain I can tell you right now that this discussion is going to go in the same "he-said;she-said" circles that so many of these discussions do. In the end it comes back to people simply believing what they want to believe and facts have very little to do with it.


    If you have any genuine factual information to share from your research, then you should do so.

    Mmmmmm....I don't think so. What that does is sets me up to present facts that can be discounted for your own amusement and to my increasing consternation. Because you get to use whatever "pop" nonsense you choose, including hear-say, revisionism and "oral tradition" you never have to back anything up with references or citations. For my part, I will be expected to use references, citations, footnotes etc etc and there is no way you are compelled to accept or respect those. The result is that a heckler in the audience is required to show more accountability.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  9. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    Bruce,
    The life of Yang Lu Chan, and his prowess as a martial artist is part of Chinese cultural history the way Babe Ruth and Jim Thorpe are known in America. You know; books, movies, TV shows...

    If you set out to be contrarian and pedantic you've succeeded, I guess someone has to step into Fire Quan's occasionally irrational shoes.

    Cloudz,
    Thanks for your posts on this topic.


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Cloudz, thanks for this thread, I can see this being a usefull thread in the course of time. I am quite occupied at the moment, and cant take too much time right now to research this very deeply.

    I will post here, in the course of time, as there are a few questions to pose - mostly around the 'classics' and the applications (in general I dont believe that this is an area that is covered very well - I suspect that beyond Dan Docherty and some others - many dont have the knowledge and the ability to read/interpret the classics - beyond superficialities.) When I pose questions to folk, I sometimes get the answe 'thats in the classics' - which always seem like something to hide behind. So this is good fertile ground to post on.

    If Bruce can act as FQ, then there will at least always be some entertainment on the subject! - it will never be dull.

    Indeed I did find few references in wikipedia land backing up the the Lang Yu Chan story i.e. something along the lines of a general commenting on Yang Lu Chan's martial capability 'as like Taiji' - presumably referring to the TaiChi reference in the I-Ching.

    However 2 more basic questions to pick-up on, along the same lines, how did Zhang Sang Feng develop/work with the 13 postures boxing and how did niegung/neikung get into nejia arts? i.e. the so called wudang arts of TCC, Xsing Yi and Bagua-zhang? I have read some pretty bizarre stuff regarding the origins of Neikung.
     
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Bruce,

    You would do better not to take some of what I say so literally - case in point, "documented". Do I have access to actual documents that are evidence of his being hired at the House of Duan? - no I don't. It should be fairly obvious that isn't how I meant it.

    If you wish to believe that the Yangs didn't teach military personel in the Imperial court, or that they weren't officially appointed martial instructors at the house of Prince Duan. You are more than welcome to do so. I don't think my first statement is deniable, the second may well be in need of further verification to be taken as fact. Iand I have no problem with that at all!)

    None of this is news to me, as you seem to think so. This is common in CMA, where much is debatable.

    I achieved what I exactly set out to acheive - to show that your statement in the other thread was rubbish as I originally called it. My purpose was not to prove specific details of how the Yangs came to be teaching military personel in the Imperial court - their is living proof!

    It would be interesting to know who was paying them to teach 'Imperial Yang' to guardsmen etc.. there only seems like there could be two possibilities there. It seems this is how the Yangs made their living so either the gaurdsmen etc were doing it from their own pocket or the House/ camp had hired instructors. Is it really all that far fetched? I would say no, although that is not to say some sort of vericifation wouldn't be desirable.

    On the flip side of that. What one would need to disprove this is a full account of any martial instructors hired there and by whom. If Yang is missing from any such list9s), then yes of course that would be very significant!

    The early Yang family did also teach martial arts in their home town of Yong Nian and some of that pre dates what they taught in Beijing. The reason I focused on them teaching in Beijing, hence the Imperial court is that what and who they taught there is so much better 'documented'.. It's only recently that lineages from Yong Nian are coming out more into public.

    You simply assume that I'm so closed off to facts that I don't even want to hear it or that I would not give fair consideration to evidence. It's fairly insulting and uncalled for as I have already stated I'm not a Historian or Academic. Well whatever, if that's your excuse, good luck to you. It seems you wish to lambast me for not offering any references and citations, but so far havn't demonstrated that you will play by your own rules. Whilst I won't pretend that I am in a position to do so, that by no means reflects that I wouldn't treat your references and citations based on merit if they were forthcoming.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    From what I can see this has now stepped across a line into silliness and name-calling. Apparently this is the proven approach to dealing with people who do not want to play your game and by your rules. I am passing-familiar with this gambit as it is used quite often on many of these forums. However, perhaps a recap is in order.

    My original position was that YANG Lu Chun taught his material primarily as a calisthenic ("for health purposes"). Since there is no documentation that you can offer, I conclude your representing that Yang taught persons of note is the same sort of "marketing" other CMA are known for. It is, after all, a too common practice for people of medial standing to seek to associate their efforts with empowered people. In the case of the YANG TAI CHI CHUAN, to be associated with the Imperial Family, its Guards or the Imperial Army in general are simply variances on the theme. However, as I mentioned before, an informed discussion of the subject isn't actually possible without understand the context of the times. Now, have you read the citation I provided (see: "Marrow of a Nation"; Chap 7)? The author, Andrew D. Morris, does a rather well-cited job of explaining why it was so very important for the Chinese to manufacture an industry of physical culture out of meager and disparate parts and attach to it great age and hoary wisdom. When you get done with Morris, I strongly recommend that you move to Stanley Hennings. Both authors have fine bibs at the ends of their works which will allow you to proceed further and drink more deeply of facts rather than "oral tradition" and magazine articles.

    Stated another way, as far as limiting yourself to information in the Public Domain please consider a suggestion to expand your resources. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  13. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well I havn't called you any names. And as far as I can tell no one else has either.

    Well you are entitled to take this point of view, of course.

    I'm finding some of what you wrote puzzling. For example you say:

    Which persons of note are you refering to here? I have only put forward people like Quan You for example. Are you denying that he learnt from Yang Lu Chan and Yang Ban Hou ?

    It seems odd that Yang Lu Chan back then only taught them 'calisthenics' according to you. But here I am in 2010 learning his Wu style as a martial art.

    Maybe you are going to deny that next eh ?

    None of what you cited is any kind of proof that Yang Lu Chan only taught calisthenics is it. It amounts to speculation does it not ?

    However well reasoned its backround may be. Perhaps there is something to it - in that people from the upper classes bacame very interested in martial arts in this era and what some of them may have been taught shall we say were the more softer aspects of the art. Again this isn't a huge revelation.

    But it is speculation isn't it. It's not like there is any direct proof that YLC primarily taught his TCC as a calisthenic to his students. But you would have the temerity to ask me for proof for the flipside..


    None of this this means they taught everyone the same way. I'm fairly certain Yang Lu Chan wasn't teaching his disciples in Beijing calisthenics - guys like Quan You and Wang Lanting.

    Assuming you can at least accept who these men were and that they even existed..

    I havn't had a chance to get hold of such a book, no.

    Can you confirm me that there are facts in either book that prove YLC only taught calisthenics in Beijing?

    Rather than simply suggest or speculate on that point.

    If they exist (these facts you allude to) it should be no problem at all for you to state them and citations for them. What i think you have there is something that indeed may be credible and you are extrapulating their findings to include the history of the Yang family.

    There may be nothing wrong with being somewhat sceptical there or taking certain stories with a pinch of salt. But at this juncture no facts have been forthcoming for your claim. So I'm going to assume that your claim/ position is as much a point of speculation as many others.

    Seeing as there is significant martial material still in existence in Yang lineages and their off shoots today - including those coming from the Imperial court eg. Funei Pai what is one to think about where the martial material came from if not from Yang Lu Chan and his sons etc ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well, Cloudz, that pretty much does it for me. Seems that according to you, you have posited nothing other than the odd discounting of what I have stated. And since you have stated no actual point you risk nothing as you casually sit by and shoot-down anything I say. You don't have to hold a position and you don't have to produce evidence. That probably works fine for TAI CHI but it does not do much to promote discourse.

    However, I will give it one more go.

    You DO agree that Davidine Siaw-voon Sim and David Gaffney wrote an informed book, "CHEN STYLE TAIJIQUAN", yes?

    You also agree that the person we are talking about is the same YANG Luchan (sic) (1799-1871), yes?

    "YANG Luchan was taught all of the skills and techniques and later retrurned to his birthplace, where he spread the art. Many years later, in his middle age he was recommended to teach in Beijing in the Imperial court. Here he earned the name Yang the Invinciblefor seeing off all challenges. In accordance with the condition that he not teach the CHEN family art to the public or use the name, YANG Luchan formulated his own style of shadow boxing, YANG style TAI CHI was based on Chen's first routine."(pg 20)

    Or how about the earlier comment on Pg 4.

    "YANG Luchan went to Beijing after leaving Chenjiagou, where he modified the routine that he learned from his teacher, adapting it to suit people whose main goal in learning was to keep fit."

    So, we have a commoner who teaches material based on the first routine of CHEN---Lao Jia Yi Lu-- which by all the accounts I have read is considered a training form, unlike Lao Jia Er Lu or Cannon fist which is considered the more combat worthy.

    Further we have a commoner who is allowed to teach "in Beijing in the Imperial Court". There is nothing to indicate that he taught any of the Imperial Family and may have only managed to entertain the children for all we know. The Imperial court covers a pretty huge population and there is nothing to indicate that he was ever given access to the Forbidden City, an accomplishment that would have required negotiating many levels of enuchs just to get to the gates. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. old palden

    old palden Valued Member


    So, after saying Yang Lu Chan taught little more than calisthenics, and arguing with Cloudz all day, you cite a quote heralding Lu Chan for earning the title "Yang the Invincible" while he taught at the Imperial Court.

    Hmmmm....

    Not sure what point, if any, you've been trying to make.

    Thoughts?


    .
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2010
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yes, I rather figured that out of everything I wrote, folks would grab onto that bit.

    But the focus was not on whatever rep YANG Lu Chun may have had, but rather what he taught. The question was not whether Yang knew Chen material or whether he could use it competently. The question was what he taught. The citations I offered support the idea that his material was based on the training material of Chen and that he seems to have dealt with people who were interested in TAI CHI's health-giving qualities.

    Hey, it matters to me not at all what people choose to believe. My view is that we can do better than just blindly accepting the offerings of whatever marketing comes down the pike. A bain of the MA community is that folks choose to believe what nurtures their fantasies or beliefs about what they do and resist using critical thinking.

    As far as "arguing with Cloudz all day" it is no difficult strategy to stonewall an exchange of ideas by simply choosing not to bring ideas to the table while discounting the views of another. Here in the States we have a political party that has raised that approach to an artform. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  17. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I don't know any of the details about this dispute but from an outside perspective it seems like Bruce is applying a suitable dose of skepticism to historical Chinese martial arts claims where as others are appealing to things like popular traditions and stories. If nobody is interested or capable of going into scholarly detail on the topic then I don't see that any productive discussion can happen with Bruce as that seems to be what he is interested in. He may be wrong or right but citing popular versions of Tai Chi history or small snippets of websites seems like it will achieve very little.

    Also, for what it's worth I attended a talk last week about Tai Chi in Oxford by a social anthropologist who has been researching for about 20 years or so and he briefly discussed the origin stories and seemed to suggest that there is very little evidence for a great number of the traditional claims made.
     
  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Although somewhat heated at times, this thread is attempting to treat the somewhat contentious origins of TCC in an intelligent manner.

    Therefore I appeal to Cloudz and Bruce to concretise their arguments as much as possible, as I see value in this thread's content - unlike some pretty irrational ones in the past.
     
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well the problem is that there probably is no proper evidence to be had. What amuses me more is why people care. Lineage is about as important as marshmallows in martial arts.

    The Bear.
     
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I have nothing against discourse. You made a statement that I disagreed with. I then gave a lot of information that despite your whining for references and citations is indeed credible. I'm particularly refering to the lineages of Quan You and Imperial Yang. This IS living proof of what Yang taught in Beijing!! And it is martial in nature.

    All I did was ask you to support your statement with facts as you asked the same from me - and what you have offered doesn't cut the mustard to support your claim, despite you protestations otherwise.

    I will agree, yes..

    yes.

    And this supports what you said how? You think because he changed the Chen style routine that it was therefore only calisthenics he taught ?

    That is flimsy not to mention plain wrong!

    You know if you knew about Yang style, you would see this for what it is.. Have you any idea how many different Yang style routines have come been passed down ?

    If you bothered to read the link on Imperial Yang Style I provided (Funei Pai) he taught about 10 routines. 10!!!!

    Read the descriptions too if you think they were all about 'calisthenics'. There is a lot of debate about what Yang taught and to who, what was changed and why - the truth is the best evidence to go on is what was passed down. And that demonstrates that many sets were taught and practiced - not just one.

    There is also the matter of push hands and martial applications. Are you going to claim they were not taught to anyone in Beijing or the Imperial court either ?

    Well some people do think this way, however it is pure nonsense. No one is more combat worthy by practicing purely form - I don't care how martial in nature it appears. It's pure nonsense.

    They are ALL 'training forms'. Which are focused on different attributes. As I tried to tell you earlier Yang may have only tught some people the easier sets, perhaps they were not up to going further, or perhaps yang simply didn't want to take them further. This isn't uncommon in CMA where things were held close. Disciples got more than students - that's just how it went.
    Who really cares about the Imperial family or children ?

    Some of the people he taught ARE a matter of record - whether you choose to believe me here or not. Your choice.

    I have given enough info on some of these men already. They were military employed in the Imperial court as guardsmen, bannermen etc. Neither does it matter to me how much access he gained to the Forbidden city.

    One such General is mentioned in the Funei Pai link. Quan You was another such figure. Wang Lanting also. Wang taught another called Li Ruidong. Abd this Li style is still practiced also. More living proof of a martial tradition rather than a 'calisthenic' one.

    I am saying that he was likely an instructor at the House of Prince Duan. If he was not appointed in that manner then some of these men must have sought out his instruction some other way. I think with these connection as well as the influence of Wu Yu Hsiang his student from home town who got him hooked up in Beijing there is a good enough likle hood he got in.

    You say commoner.. But that is irrelivent if his martial skill was worthy enough. The family of Wu Yu Hsian was well of and he had the connections - read their family history if you don't believe me.

    That may have got his foot in the door, and if his martial arts were good enough that could have sealed the deal for him to become an instructor at the house of prince duan.

    That he made himself enough of a repuation to get the nickname Yang the Invincable suggest his martial skills were more than noteworthy enough.

    I will start a thread on another forum where I think I might find one or two that can hopefully provide more information or something more reputable for you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010

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