Systema sparring experiment

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Paul Genge, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Real fights,knife attacks and multiple opponents should be seen as ambushes and should be delt with as such.

    GET OFF LINE AND LAY DOWN SUPERIOR FIRE POWER.

    Train to be aware and at the first indication of an attack MOVE and go from aware to 100% all out attack. SAS surprise aggresssion and sustain. DO NOT "compete" it is near impossible to block numerous attacks. You MUST take the intiative and ATTACK AT ALL TIMES with no concern for defence once you have initiated the attack.

    ALL training should be done as though a knife is involved. This shall lead you to discard many techniques and concentrate on attitude,principles and explosive pragmatic action.

    If I am close enough and circumstances dictated that I must pass between two opponents I would take one of them out or crash right over him.I would still much prefare to train so as to keep one between me and the other. And NEVER turn your back or lose sight of the danger even for an instant.

    Incedently walls make excellent weapons. Crash him into it drive him into it to negate his mobility.

    All of the above is based on working in deprived areas of Glasgow.The martial art part boils down to attitude awareness general toughness. Even if the technique is unsophistocated..it is the one with the strongest decisive attitude that has the better chance.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2010
  2. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Great post sir,Attitude indeed does make the difference,that and awareness and use of enviroment,get stuck in in training and techniques and tactics will come from this.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You may want to check out kevin Secours Stuff, he's Montreal Sytema, and seems to do a lot of alive practise and submission wrestling.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWSA18d-zE"]COMBAT SYSTEMA--Clinch DVD - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOE_74xawMo&feature=related"]Kevin Secours Submission Wrestling - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    I have seen kev's material. The sub grappling comes from his jujitsu and he has added some protective gear work, but his dvd's don't show how it fits into the way he structures class.
     
  5. DDale

    DDale Valued Member

    Interesting enough light sparring videos. I'm wondering what in particular is specifically "Systema"? Is Systema more of a martial philosophy (a la Jeet Kune Do) or a set of techniques? I noticed some traditional jujitsu/aikido style takedowns in there amongst the boxing.

    Oh by the way some of my clubs light sparring sessions can be see in my sig.
     
  6. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    What is Systema is a good question.

    To put it simply it means the system and is used in Russia in a similar fashion as the term Jujitsu to describe a number of different styles.

    There are basically two main schools with a number of offshoots.

    The 1st is Ryabko - His style uses short strikes, breathing drills and movement. He teaches no techniques, but relies on movement drills to teach his students.

    The 2nd is Kadochnikov - There are a number of offshoots of his approach, but they all use his research on human mechanics and engineering to allow the student to find the most efficient solution to a problem. They also say there is no techniques in what they do, but if you watch their clips you will see a lot of common expressions of principle.

    The link between Kadochnikov and Ryabko is not clear. I know Ryabko has not trained with Kadochnikov, but some of his lead instructors received Kadochnikov instruction 1st during their millitary service. In my opinion this makes their approach more rounded and their instruction better.

    Yes you will see the odd wrist lock appearing in the clips. This is for a couple of reasons. 1st they are efficient and certainly there is plenty of footage of Kadochnikov systema using them. 2nd the Ryabko approach aims to allow natural expression. As I have a back ground in a number of arts that use locks I find they come out from time to time. The big difference is that they are not set up for they are just seizing an opportunity as it presents itself.

    Hope this helps and is not too long a reply.

    Paul Genge
     
  7. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    This bothers me. If he teaches NO technique what do the students actually hit the attacker with? If the student is only learning movement are the punches, kicks, locks, chokes, throws etc made up by the student? If this is the case what is the point of learning the system? You may as well go up the pub and pick a fight.

    Now I am all for the student finding his own way, but he/she cannot do that until I have given them a system to draw upon. Expressions of principal is okay, but you say techniques are not taught, so what is the principal?
    What do you have to draw on. It is fine for you because you say you have a background in other arts, but I cannot see how an art based on movement and theory, but no physical combat hypothesis can work.

    You say that there are wrist locks in the system and that they are used because they are efficient. I disagree. We all teach and use wrist locks and yes, from time to time you do have the opportunity to use them, but you are not going to get a wrist lock on in a REAL combat scenario. You need punches, elbows, headbutts, kicks etc.
    I agree that movement is paramount, footwork is everything. I am a massive fan of human mechanics and because of such I now hit much harder that I used to. My balance is better, timing has improved etc, but I also have a complete system to draw on.
    It does sound to me as a lacking on the part of the founders. Why would you omit the teaching of technique?
    It is like poor Instructors who pad out their lessons with physical exercise because they do not have the understanding technique wise to fill a lesson.
     
  8. DDale

    DDale Valued Member

  9. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    What is technique other than a series of principles strung together to work effectively in a given situation. Because the drills we use don't usually involve set attacks we concentrate on applying the principles available instead of forcing a set technique to fit the attack.

    This approach is not for everyone, but with a skillfull teacher it is an effective way of learning. My only real concern has been that the slow pace of training is limiting and that is why we are introducing the protective gear work.
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    How does he train his students to do a "hip throw" this way? There are so many details that will be required to execute a correct "hip throw". There are more than 60 different principles in the throwing art. How can you cover all those principles without a concrete mapping to the real "technique"?

    The striking is one point contact. As long as you extend your arm out, or your leg out, you are going to hit something. The throwing is 2 or 3 points contact. It will require your arms and legs to generate force in different directions and different spiral space. The relationship between your body position and your opponent's body position is very critical. It's very hard to train any throwing art without a partner and without a concrete technique IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010
  11. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    In systema there are no hip or shoulder type throws, but there is takedowns by structure breaking. Describing the process is obviously proving inadequate. I don't like to simply say you have to experience it as I feel thus is a lazy answer, but in this case it might be the best answer I can give. I will have a think of a better way to explain things.

    Paul Genge
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    The "structure breaking" is a general guideline for all throwing art. But there are effective way to do it and non-effective way to do it. The difference is in the detail and sometime the "principle" approach just don't cover enough detail.

    For example, you can push your opponent's body and "trip" his leg to break his structure. The question is

    - Where do you push your opponent's body (which contact point)?
    - Which opponent's leg do you want to trip (his front leg or his back leg)?
    - Which leg do you want to use for tripping (your front leg or your back leg)?

    Besides, sweeping or hooking his leg may be better than just "tripping" his leg. Those small detail will be difficult to train by using the "principle" approach IMO.

    I'm very interest in the "principle" approach training method. But I find it's very difficult to use "one general principle" to train my jab, hook, upper cut, back fist, hammer fist, ... May be the "principle" training method can apply in "defense (such as yield, sticky, follow, ...)" but not very well in "offense (such as front kick, side kick, round house kick, ...)".
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010
  13. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Again I agree.
    I tell my students that what comes out in a fight is determined by them. I cannot say you must use a wrist lock and end it peacefully or you must eye jab, headbutt, takedown, stamp on the head for example. The decision to fight or flight is theirs alone.
    That said they can only do this by having a complete system to draw upon.
    Breaking someones structure is fine (Aikido and Tai Chi are awesome), but in both of these arts the fight does not stop when someone is off balance if the attacker is hell bent on your destruction. You need to hit him with something bloody hard or choke him out.
    I just cannot see how you can do this on principal alone.
    How many types of jab should you learn before you have a good jab?
    Take Judo in the Olympic games as an example. Many years of training and dozens and dozens of different techniques available, but how many throws do you see? 5 or 6 maybe? You need a complete system to be able to whittle it down to what you will use in a fight.
    Someone who only knows those 5 or 6 throws will not win the Olympics.
     
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    In aikido you MUST hit him bloody hard before you even attempt a lock or throw. This is something that a great deal of aikidoka are unaware of (until it is too late).
     
  15. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    You make a good point. I teach Eskrima and when we show disarms we make the point that they should only be done after a hit and the opponent pretty much done for. The opponent will definately not be compliant enough otherwise. A disarm or a throw should not be sought after.
    If Systema is based on a theory of locks, throws etc but no ability to hit then it is not for me.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Whether you should punch your opponent and then throw him, or throw him on the ground and then punch him is a very interest subject.

    If you throw a match box in the air and then punch at it. That match box will fly away. If you throw a match box on the ground, even a 5 years old can step on and smash it.

    The same reason as BJJ guys prefer to take their opponent down to the ground and then apply joint locking. It's more difficult to apply joint locking in stand up situation (because your opponent's body has too much freedom).

    If you can knock your opponent down with your punch, you won't need to throw him down again. If his backward dodging (against your punch) makes him to move away from your throwing range, it may be counter productive for your throw.

    If you can get body control first then whether you want to punch him and then throw him, or throw him and then punch him, it will be all up to you because your body control, your opponent is not going anywhere (you and your opponent's body are connected as 1 unit).
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2010
  17. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The other reason for bjj developing the approach of taking the opponent to the floor was that during it's development a large proportion of their potential opponents had a limited ground game. Doing this allowed them to neutralise any strength advantages an opponent had other them by putting them in an environment where they did not know how to
    move.
     
  18. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The other reason for bjj developing the approach of taking the opponent to the floor was that during it's development a large proportion of their potential opponents had a limited ground game. Doing this allowed them to neutralise any strength advantages an opponent had other them by putting them in an environment where they did not know how to
    move.
     
  19. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    A tactic in Muay Thai is to off balance and throw your opponent as he is striking you and then strike him as he off balance or during his fall to the ring floor.:)
     
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I think hes had Mat Thornton over for a seminar so maybe its 'I method' based, If he's the same line as Systema as you why not email him and ask?
     

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