Systema sparring experiment

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Paul Genge, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    At the moment my group are experimenting with sparring at a fast pace. This is somewhat different to most of the usual clips you see on YouTube. To do this we use a variety of protective kit as we explore a variety of systema topics.

    This clip is experimenting in using fist fighting and structure breaking against a boxer.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGwQlTmNjuE&feature=youtube_gdata"]YouTube[/ame]

    this is playing with some knife defence.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd6lbnqQacY&feature=youtube_gdata"]Systema knife defence sparring 18/01/10 - YouTube[/ame]

    This is an ongoing experiment and I am not sure where it is going, but it is alot of fun and very useful.

    Paul Genge
     
  2. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    This is another clip of knife defence sparring.


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLQS6V9wWg&feature=youtube_gdata"]Systems knife defence sparring with protective equipment - YouTube[/ame]

    This is a clip from the 1st time we tried using a headguard with a face protector for the attacker.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLQS6V9wWg&feature=youtube_gdata"]Systems knife defence sparring with protective equipment - YouTube[/ame]
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Nice honest videos Paul. I have posted similar using shock knives.

    Nok knives are very good, as you can chalk or lipstick the edge. Get the defender to wear a white t-shirt and where the cuts would be show up easily.

    Safe, but realistic.
     
  4. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    I have tried the chalk and pen approach before, but I am not convinced by it. We use aluminium knives and the advantage from them is that you get very honest feedback in the way of pain and bruises when we get it wrong. I like this because it teaches the body to move which the intellectual approach of looking at where a knife touched then trying to form a better response does not.

    I imagine the shock knife is similar. I think we are getting one at work soon so I look forward to being on the receiving end of it.
     
  5. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    I have tried the chalk and pen approach before, but I am not convinced by it. We use aluminium knives and the advantage from them is that you get very honest feedback in the way of pain and bruises when we get it wrong. I like this because it teaches the body to move which the intellectual approach of looking at where a knife touched then trying to form a better response does not.

    I imagine the shock knife is similar. I think we are getting one at work soon so I look forward to being on the receiving end of it.
     
  6. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Slashing movements do not cause pain in training and therefore are easily missed. Take for example you blocking a knife thrust. Now will a real knife attack I withdraw my blade and cut major arteries in you arm. The body starts to go into shock very quick. This is not easily replecated with aluminium knives.
    Don't get me wrong, I have some great aluminium knives, but the reality is you will not get one painfull thrust in a knife fight, rather dozens of slashing movements that will open you up.
     
  7. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    True, but neither does a line of ink mean that the knife has hit with sufficient force to cut through clothing to do significent (by this I mean incapitating) injury. Every training approach has it's positive and negative aspects. The best approach for me is to vary the approaches, speeds and types of weapons used to get as many different view points on what we do as possible.

    Paul Genge
     
  8. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Tonight we explored totally free movement under presure.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN0W0wfofJI&feature=youtube_gdata"]YouTube[/ame]
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Paul, Interesting stuff.
    Two observations. Your partners are fighting out of range therefore they are leaving openings because there is no threat from the attack. You might ask them to close and attack more effectively. Secondly, they are going down to easily from throws. It would be better to make them actively resist the throws so you are forced to do the throws perfectly. However the ideas themselves are good.

    The Bear
     
  10. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The range is engineered by movement on my part and striking to the wrists, arms and hands. It hurts like hell and makes it very difficult to get in. Without gloves it can be a show stopper, but gloves gives us a chance to work harder for longer.

    As far as active resistance I am trying to get the guys to foster that. Though it often does not look like it they do try it on a bit, but often that in turn creates openings. As I have said before this is an ongoing experiment treading a path no one has walked before so I am not sure where we are going with it.

    I am lucky that I have a couple of lads with me with a boxing/Thai background, but as yet lack a grappler to play with. I therefore train bjj and submission grappling to develope that side of my personal game.

    The next thing to add will be some kicking to the experiment, which should mix things up again.
     
  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Many have walked this path before. I remember doing exactly this type of exercise 10 years ago in a Tai Chi group. Except it was bare knuckle. Alot of burst faces and black eyes in those days too. Using many almost identical techniques. I know with certainty we weren't pioneers of this training.


    I think that might be working against them in this case. They are boxing like they have 12oz gloves on and using set moves that are designed for a contest against another boxer. Which is a disadvantage in a mixed martial arts environment.
    Yeah Cross training is key, you should head along to a local sambo class or mma gym and you'll probably find someone willing to work on it with you. It's the best way to find the holes in your own training. A fresh perspective never hurts.

    The Bear.
     
  12. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    If the most I had to worry about was a hit to the wrist I would be laughing.
    true hits such as the ones you use do hurt, but you are not simulating a situation where your attacker is truely intend on ripping you a new ****.

    You are not treading a new path. we all teach lessons like this every week and with a lot more realism.
    My first post to you was that you have shown good honest video's, which is true. Not everything in real training is neat. Sometimes you get the bear - sometimes the bear gets you, but do not be fooled into thinking you have anything new.
     
  13. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    For some this is not new, but within the systema circle there are few doing anything like this.

    I am already training at straight blast and that is a good reality check. In the future I will probably look at classes beyond the grappling program.

    What I am trying to achieve is good quality systema under presure not a crappy Immitation of mma. For that reason I am progressively ramping things, adding to the mix and increasing the intensity as we develop.

    It has to be said that some of my biggest learns so far have been from my mistakes and not when it goes well. That is why having the bear bite you from time to time is not such a problem. ;-)

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2010
  14. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    This time we had two attackers and an increase in pace and contact.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDSJsYgAL-o"]YouTube[/ame]

    Paul
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think this is a really interesting experiment for your system and I sincerely appluad you posting videos of your journey for people to follow.

    If I might make a suggestion? If you're looking for something more closely related to pressure tested self defence than sparring, you might look at Geoff Thompson's Animal Day, MAP's JWT's videos (I owe him a DVD actually) and Dikzzz's stuff too. Apologies if you are already up to speed with their stuff and methodologies.

    Best wishes,
    Mitch
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    One kind of sparring can be very useful and that is one person applies punches, the other person tries to tangle and wrap his opponent's arms in head lock, underhook, overhook, arm lock, bear hug, waist control, ... The round stop when any of those body controls has been accomplished.

    Another kind of sparring can be useful too and that is one person applies kicks, the other person tries to catch his opponent's kicks, The round stop when the leg has been caught.

    Both sparring format are more for skill development. Integrate both kicks and punches (it will get harder) can be added in in the later training stage.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2010
  17. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The plan is not so much as test, but to develop our skill set. For that reason we are increasing the presure and complexity as our comfort level improves. What I want to avoid is us getting pushed too far and falling back to poor quality mma type skills. Instead I am aiming at good quality systema, but under presure.

    I have seen some of geoffs material, but I will keep my out for some more.
     
  18. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    Kicking and kick defence will be the next component we will add. I am the hoping to get my students trained to double leg, single keg and Thai clinch before adding grabs.
     
  19. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Paul, you mention that you are trying to improve your skill set. Now, I apologise for my harshness, but if you turn your back (as you do) when training two onto one you will get knifed, smashed across the head with whatever the other guy has in his hand, a blow on the head with a stilleto from his drunk girlfriend etc.

    In addition you are often found between the two opponents. Now when I train two onto one if I get stuck in the middle I am doomed. I suggest always trying to place one of the opponents between you and the other guy. That way you only have one to deal with at a time.


    In addition to that, when you went down the other guy stood and watched, when in reality he would be kicking your head in, or even worse stamping (my prefered method as it shatters whatever it makes contact with).

    I know that you are building your skills, which is to be admired, but I really think you should adopt some of Geoff Thompsons ideas (or JWT) as already recommended.

    It is also worth searching you-tube for Tony Blaeur and his spear system
     
  20. Paul Genge

    Paul Genge Banned Banned

    The tactic of aligning attackers does exist within systema however it is often easier said than doe in a room that is no more than 8 feet wide, but I take your point. However to have the mindset that you are doomed if you get stuck in the middle is crazy as you are never going to develop a skill set for that scenario.

    As for one of the attackers no. Coming in whilst I was on the floor. I will have to take the wrap for that as I had not defined that things stay live in that situation.
     

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