It's funny how so many people don't believe in energy work within TCC, when Systema does relatively the same thing, more or less, but people seem more open to it. From my eyes, this kind of work is exactly or very similiar to the energy work that some do in the TCC world. Comments?? http://www.zippyvideos.com/6993848694942346/sticky/
Interesting clip - I trained with that guy when I was in Moscow, he was very helpful! I'd be wary about saying it is the same thing as in tai chi clips as often the Russians have very different explanations for this type of work - manipulating tension, psychology and breathing for example rather than "just" energy. I'm visiting Mikhail in July, I'll see if I can find out more..... cheers Rob
I'm sincerely curious about this subject, so whatever you find out I'd be interested to know. It may just be a matter of definitions, because in my mind energy is energy. Of course, it's a cooperative training exercise, but it's energy manipulation nevertheless.
I guess these things will always look wierd, unless you're 'in the know'. A clip can show anything you like, you can't comment on much without being able to be there. Maybe if he tells you about his special Russian pies? EDIT: Maybe it is to do with how these things are marketed that causes so much flak?
I'm speaking mainly of forums like this one and others, and when Systema displays energy work, there are far less negative comments then in the TCC realm. I'm just curious as to why. Brido, I really don't want to get into that old argument again, but basically you are right. The same thing wouldn't happen to you if you touched him; you would have to have been working with him for a while, same as in the TC schools that practice this kind of work.
Perhaps that is wise for now, as it hasn't been that long since the last one that fresh ideas or experiences can add anything to the discussion.
I don't know, it seems to me that a whole lot of people are extremely closed minded about systema. I'm certainly sorry if Tai Chi has an even worse rep.
I'm not so sure that they are to be honest, at least not on some forums. However a reason might be the background of the systema guys - their operational history plus their current roles and positions tends to add weight I guess. Also bear in mind the extensive research the Soviets undertook in all manner of psychological / psychic / para normal areas - it dates back to the 1920's. Vladimir has spoken about some of the experiments he was put through in the past. Of course there is / was still a lot of dis-information in this area (from all sides) but I've always found the Russian teachers very clear about exactly what they are doing and how they do it. I have seen one teacher who has branched off into his own thing and has what looks like a nice little cult going ( I believe he recently announced himself as the new Messiah....) but with MR and VV at least I have seen no sign of the.....peculiarities?...that accompany some Taiji versions of this sort of work Cheers Rob
I get the same problem. If I run into a copy or something similar, I'll post a link. edit: It started working for me. Not sure why it takes awhile, but it finally started playing. <dsl connection> To comment on the video, as others have said, it is difficult to see the effects on another using internal means. Yet, when watching the video, I get the idea that they are playing for the camera in order to stir up interest. I could be wrong. Not to say that it can't be real. I'm kind of border-line between understanding and embracing, and skeptical and dis-beleving. -- jolt
What we see in these clips is people being manipulated by some kind of invisible thing (allegedly). Sometimes they are touching sometimes they are not. Either it is really happening or it isn't - I don't see how one guy explaining it differently to another guy has any bearing on that.
That's your interperation of what you see, given that there is no context or explanation or any allegation of "chi power". Lol, but then you just want to use it to push your own ideas, don't you "fatboy". Weasel Rob
I'm amazed that these discussions still go on... we all accept that these are 'games' that can be played by instructors who can get into the head of compliant people. I've seen bullies make people dance on tables in bars and involuntarily crap themselves using their 'chi' - and that's exactly what they are doing, on a subliminal level. When these teachers 'work' their students this way, they are weakening them and strengthening their hold over them. They might just as well tattoo VICTIM all over their head. They always put barriers up so that they don't have to make it work against a fighter off the street because they have to be able to get into their head first. Chi (or subliminal) work is an important part of training so that this crap doesn't work on you, so that people CAN'T get into your head - and you also have to learn how to make it intimidate others that may be susceptible on a subliminal level.
I think what Tai chi teaches and what systema teaches about energy is completely different. Between the two, tai chi is the "psychic" and systema is the "derren brown" of martial arts (best way I can think of it.)
"When these teachers 'work' their students this way, they are weakening them and strengthening their hold over them. They might just as well tattoo VICTIM all over their head. They always put barriers up so that they don't have to make it work against a fighter off the street because they have to be able to get into their head first. " To be fair that is not how Mikhail works - though I can appreciate the observation given that clip. I also found that neither he or Vladimir put up any barriers - there is always a remarkable degree of freedom of choice and accesibility "Chi (or subliminal) work is an important part of training so that this crap doesn't work on you, so that people CAN'T get into your head - and you also have to learn how to make it intimidate others that may be susceptible on a subliminal level." How do you practice that without falling into the above trap? It's been my experience that some teachers maybe start out with good intentions in this area but then get "seduced" by the fact they can seemingly make people dance like puppets. when it only works on "special" or "sensitive" students the whole thing starts to feed upon itself. That's why I think any work in the psychological or energy or whatever area you want to call it needs to be carried out very carefully and under good guidance. If someone learns a form from a teacher, then goes away and trains it on his own for 5 years, how much will it look like the original form when he comes back? If that holds true for physical work, how much more so for "beyond the physical"? My feeling with most of the people I trained with before in this is that they were experimenting a lot without really having a clear direction. One or two teachers had much clearer ideas and explanations for their work and seemed less suscseptible to ego problems as a result. I've found the Russian's to be very clear when presenting this type of work, it isn't overplayed and questions and answers are positively encouraged. Let's face it there is a long scientific backgournd (through Soviet research) and spiritual background (through the Orthodox church) that they have to draw on. Cheers Rob
Hi Rob I don't have that amount of experience in systema, my remarks were more 'general', but I'd still like to see it work on me. Don't forget I also have a long background in ritual magic, healing, and have done 16 years work with special forces in the eastern bloc who have extensive knowledge of the soviet military practices. From what I've seen of Systema much of their practice runs parallel with mine. (My student also wrote their coaching programme). I understand the 'drill' and 'fun' aspects of this type of training, but my earlier post explains the negativity of the traps that you talk about. We use the 'animal's', positive affirmation and 'testing' in our taiji and karate to strengthen the resolve and determination to deal with someone trying to 'get into your head'. We stick, blend, follow etc, but we never 'give in' psychically.
I don't have any ideas. We are seeing something - is it hypnotism, acting to get attention, a magic trick? I would rather not talk about mystical powers, I just wonder what it is that these types of videos are showing (in reality) and really what's the point of them.
Every Systema instructor I've seen post on the web about this explain it in terms of using psychology to make people sort of 'flinch' the way you want them to. It may be that these psychological techniques only work on suggestible 'marks' (i.e. students you've had time to work with), and hence critique their practicality in a martial context, but nonetheless they aren't claiming any kind of mystical energy field is at work.
