Systema Christian roots? MA's effects on the soul?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Filipmania, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    A quick demo on Systema striking.
  2. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    that's interesting terminology used for punching.
    I would refer the same as light, medium or hard hitting.
    In sparring I would also refer it in the same way, I think that terminology transfers to most people easier than, "skin", "muscle", or "organ" depth, which to me sounds like an over complication of the terminology to make it sound unique.
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  3. Filipmania

    Filipmania New Member

    It's been a few days since I've logged on these forums but yeah..
    Old Bloke, our style is not only Vasiliev because our instructor does some mixing up

    It really is different than "light, medium or hard" in the way that it's more precise as to what it does, you can fire "light, medium, hard" punches towards the "organ" depth but the implication is that you want it to be harder... however you can fire a fast hard punch on the "skin" depth and you will deal no damage because that's where the punch stops
    That being said Systema(specially Kadochnikov) uses a lot of Physics terms e.g the principle of the leverage and even it's own internal terms e.g the principle of the cross because it's USSR science based which could make it confusing but at the very least "you don't need to know everything about gravity to understand that an apple can fall on your head from a tree".

    Bear in mind people that these strikes are no "5% power slaps" jokes, Kadochnikov prides themselves on dealing with anything using +-25% but that's not important
    There's videos of these instructors pulling off punches that send people flying(quite literally).
    While I too argue that Systema has sparring there was a hard split between "non competitive" and "competitive" Systema, the later is called ROSS(POCC) and it's the Systema variation that uses the most Sambo in it and has matches "somewhere"(this because it's not well known online at least, not a single facebook group for instance).
    All Systema trainings are stressful for the body tho(e.g everyone lies on you and you have to get out), when I first enrolled I was close to collapsing partially due to the physical workouts and after the 1st 2 trainings came back home with bruises all over my chest and to this day it's not rare that I lose my attention and get hit in the face so I bleed a little.

    Someone mentioned Vasiliev's balance training's
    Yes, trainings range from full contact with everyone punching whomever they please to light contact where you're balancing on one leg and trying to knock your opponent off balance and on the floor who's also one leg while keeping your balance

    Also thanks for the link to Hesychasm, someone connected with the original point
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  4. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    You can fire a hard punch that falls short, but essentially the end result is the impact on the opponent, or sparring partner.

    It still sounds like an over complication of a simple concept;

    Light, medium or hard is enough, no need to make additionally descriptions to make it more difficult for new students.

    I don't see why you would want to train hard punches that fall short and only impact skin level; may as well train with the correct distancing for a full power strike, but got medium or light power.
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  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm not so sure...

    First you have to consider the context - Systema claims health benefits through massage with punches. I think from this perspective it makes sense to have heavy but shallow contact etc...

    But also there are different qualities to hitting. Most people must have sparred with someone who just has naturally "heavy hands". Even a light blow leaves you convinced damage has been done, even though you are entirely unharmed. Also from what I've seen they use strikes to implement takedowns a lot in Systema, and how effective that is can be debated but if you wish to get someone on the ground with unbalancing strikes then a more nuanced approach to striking depth and power seems appropriate.
  6. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Ok I have been searching for a scientific explanation to Systema striking, as the principles of heavy and depth v speed etc, at the moment, this is the best I have found...

    The thing to consider is the way gravity is used in Systema to increase the acceleration of a strike. If we were to drop an object it would fall with an acceleration of approximately 9.80665 m/s2. The same happens with any strike that drops into the target. In effect we add the acceleration of gravity to the force that we are able to generate with our own muscles.

    Now if we drop our body weight at the point of impact we multiply our body mass in kg with the acceleration of gravity. So if our body weight is 80kg and we know the acceleration of gravity is 9.80665 m/s2 the force that we can generate by dropping our body weight is 789.3 Newtons and better still we do not have to use any energy to generate it.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Only if your hitting directly downwards surely?

    You can add to a strike with gravity, but not at the 100% efficency your talking about. And that without even looking at whether your claimed figures are correct.
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  8. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    On a Systema strike, as the fist for example makes contact, the force is dropped into the area of impact, also they are not my figures, they are sir Issac newtons.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That explains Rybko's physique then! :D

    Old bloke, I found the Paul Genge article you copy/pasted from, but honestly that doesn't provide any kind of mechanism for utilising your entire bodyweight in a strike.

    The physics of striking in Systema

    The bit about Val Riazinov saying an arm weighs more than a baseball bat is more informative. He seems a bit less mystical than the other instructors, and you can see him instructing people with a combat sport striking base in this video:

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  10. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Thank you for that DH.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Surely we use a baseball bat to hit with, because its hard, not because it's heavy, you have aluminium bats, not lead bats.

    If your hitting upwards to the chin, theirs no way to drop bodyweight into it, maybe at 45 degrees downwards to the body (which many demos have ish) you can but some weight downwards, but just multiplying gravity by your mass is not going to give you anything like an accurate figure.
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  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yup. My understanding is that relaxation is important to negate the effect of antagonist muscles, not to somehow leverage the small force of gravity in directions other than straight down.
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  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Agreed and then some styles use kime/focus to tense the striking surface/body and aide energy transfer, so it's a punch not a push, although if you hit pads enough you'll learn it independently anyway.

    Iirc it's called "deadhand" in some styles of kung fu (I may of just made that up though)
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  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Google brings up lots of dim mak nonsense when I search for that. :D

    Slightly OT, but the other day I saw a bloke practicing with a whip in the park, his bicycle had a staff attached to the frame. My first thought was "Systema". :)
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  15. Kaigun

    Kaigun New Member

    I don't think they have any martial arts that survived.
  16. Kaigun

    Kaigun New Member

    sorry, that's really nonsense. There is a famous Russian tale of a Russian warrior monk who fought a Tatar-Mongol warrior during the Kulikov battle in a duel. Also, Monks in Japan were known to dedicate lots of time to training in the warrior arts besides their religious studies, so I don't see why it would be any different for Christian monks.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's a strong criticism when you only have one legendary anecdote to back it up with.

    I think that aikiMac is a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, if memory serves, so he might know a thing or two about it.
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  18. Kaigun

    Kaigun New Member

    well, the anecdote comes from a historical primary source, and it's not one anecdote, it's just the only one I know of off the top of my head, I am sure there are other examples. Weren't the Knights Templar, and Teutonic Order, orders of warrior monks?
  19. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Greetings Kaigun, would you kindly post the historical primary source? (Title and Author of book , link to website, whatever it is.) When people make points based on sources around here, we usually like to be able to access that source ourselves.

    Welcome to MAP! :)
  20. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Hmmm, the quote button doesn't appear today for me.

    so Kaigun,you said-

    " Also, Monks in Japan were known to dedicate lots of time to training in the warrior arts besides their religious studies, so I don't see why it would be any different for Christian monks."

    You might wish to amend that to "some monks in Japan..."

    as to "Weren't the Knights Templar, and Teutonic Order, orders of warrior monks?"

    Sure-but you'll find whether Buddhist,Christian,Taoist,etc that the VAST majority of monks in religious orders were too busy farming,begging,writing/copying works,observing religious practices,etc to spend much if any time practicing combat skills.The monks in England and France didn't fare too well against those Norse raids. Also realize that some joined orders after a secular life where they may have practiced such skills,whether they were nobility or the "base born".

    An example is that while many European monks and priests took up arms to participate in the Crusades it's not like most of them had any formal training.Except in their religious orders.

    It's a wee bit o' a myth-due mostly to the popularity in the latter part of the 20th century of eastern combat systems in the west and all the misconceptions and gung fu fairy tales which came with them-that a preponderance of monks and priests,east or west were in "the old days" combat practitioners.
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