Systema Christian roots? MA's effects on the soul?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Filipmania, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award


    I don't think your using the word sparring, in the same way everyone else uses the word sparring.

    If it's anything goes, and your going full force, whats your injury rate like?
     
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    To be fair, I don't think he said that it was, though it's late and I may be missing a bit :)

    And in most MA, most of the time, people do not spar "anything goes and full force," for precisely the injury risk you refer to :)
     
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  3. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    In the sparring session, anything goes means I could attack you with punches, kicks, from any angle, with a knife, on the ground, sweeps,arm bars, leg locks anything.
    In Systema our punching principles are similar to the wing chuns relaxed punching, we hit at depths, skin, muscle or organ, during sparring, we obviously go skin or muscle depth, but the punch will look the same if the technique is correct, again it is down to the sparring group on how deep and at what tempo we work. In the little over 3 years we have had a couple of hyperflexed fingers, and 1 case of mild ligament damage to an ankle, which was the injured persons own fault, and a scuff to an eye lid, that I am aware of. I would be interested to know your understanding of sparring ,as you say, my understanding of it is different to yours. Does your sparring not include 2 or more people testing each other?
     
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  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Full Sparring is generally two people trying there best to beat each other within a defined ruleset, we occasionally roll and wrestle two vs onefor fun, and so new people realise multiple attackers should be run away from.

    So if your striking sparring is at light contact, what about your takedowns, vlad etc always shows slot of balance taking, do you spar that at light contact too?
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Do you think of "full force" striking as the norm in sparring?
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    As part of a continuum yes, large gloves with heavier contact, small gloves with lighter contact, he said they spar regularly, always playing super light, with any protective equipment is just larping.

    And with wrestling / BJJ matching the intesity to what your partner can cope with, full force grappling isn't dangerous.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    So when you were training striking and sparring, you hit as hard as you did in competition on a regular basis? To me that's fighting, not sparring.
     
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  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I did some quick and easy digging and found the following online currently.

    About Buteyko:

    Konstantin Buteyko - Wikipedia

    From the Systema Hong Kong website; where they seem to take the history quite seriously:
    Systema Hong Kong | Systema History | Systema Hong Kong

    I find that quite believable, but I also think it a good bet Ryakbo drew from various broader sources, not only Russian folk styles, whether that be fighting styles or his internal arts and practices.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
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  9. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Our sparring is in your words light to medium, again we use depth, skin deep or muscle deep, which can be difficult to understand for those not familiar with Systema, our takedowns can be based on structure manipulation, locks, and what you call balance taking, this is done at varying speed and depth, which depends on the level of the people sparring, we use no gloves or other protection, yes I get a few bruises. We are also taught to take the sparring to the ground even if initiated by the receiver, this gives confidence fighting on the ground, and getting up without getting clobbered, we strike in class to muscle depth (medium in you words), so if a practioner is hit in real life, they have a better chance of not freezing up, I will say, if a student does not want to participate in heavier or at a faster tempo, then they don't have too, as I say it is up to the individuals sparring, after all we are grown ups and can be trusted.
     
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Upto on occasion, yep, but with larger gloves of course, otherwise the lighter sparring can drift towards the unrealistic.

    I still train striking occasionally, my time is limited so any training is better then no training.
     
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I totally agree that light sparring can easily become couter-productive and divorced from reality without heavier contact to inform it, but I also don't think that it is necessary to be taking full-force headshots in order to become better at fighting.

    What is the distinction between two people sparring to win at full whack and fighting in competition, in your opinion?
     
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  12. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    As it relates to the OP and he has an interest (as do I) I thought I would post this link I'm looking at.
    Hesychasm: Hesychasm - Wikipedia

     
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  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    IMHO one of the main differences would be how much you take advantage of things.
    I know some MMA gyms for example that have a rule/practice that if you wind someone so they take a knee or wobble them with a head shot, you do follow up with more shots (so they get used to having to fight through if if they can) but they don't go in for the "kill" like in an actual match and pull those follow up shots.
    Some other places would see taking a knee as a time out.
    All rule dependent of course.
    But generally I'd say you are right...unless you train with some complete headcases (and some people do) then even hard training sparring is not quite like the real thing.
     
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  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    The difference is intensity and safety, in sparring, you don't want to be breaking your training partners, I think we're getting hung up on the 'full force' bit, the difference between 80% and 100% contact is much less then the difference between 5% power random attack sparring and 40% power light contact gloved striking.

    Especially when you take out the play acting.
     
  15. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Going fully hard every sparring session is not a good idea. It is asking for injury. We mix it up, light, medium and then hard power. I have seen plenty of video's of MMA gym's and Muay Thai sparring to know that they don't always go fully hard all the time either. I have also seen controversy and criticism of certain camps in MMA because they do go hard too much- and their fighters get injured way too often.

    You can develop plenty of sparring skills without it being an all out actual fight- timing, distance finding your target, etc. with lighter power matches. You do need some full power matches mixed in too, or you forget how to turn it up and hit full power. But it needn't be all the time.

    The whole going full out all the time without protective equipment "or your are larping" smacks of machismo culture and it isn't smart. I am going to agree with Mitch that it isn't what most schools do either.
     
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  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I agree It's not, but it is closer to reality, with the draw back of injury risk.
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I completly agree, although I didn't say:

    "The whole going full out all the time without protective equipment "or your are larping" smacks of machismo culture and it isn't smart."

    My point was describing systema as a sparring based system, was inaccurate, and being proud of sparring at a light intensity vs groups with knives etc was pretty much the definition of larping, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Old bloke said that eye gouges and groin shots weren't allowed.

    I'm not disagreeing with your general point, but let's be fair. :)
     
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  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your right, I saw the bit which said knifes and anything goes and managed to miss read the rest, my apologies,

    Although bringing a knife to a 5% slap fight seems a little unfair.
     
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  20. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Brining the knife in is to test the receiver, make sure they try to remain relaxed and tension free, as well as getting used to dealing with the unexpected and or multiple attacks, which is probably more realistic than big gloves little gloves, the 5% slap fight is ok for beginners, but if you read my posts properly you will find that I agree with you, play but you have to ramp it up on a regular basis, in Systema it is the students choice, I train with a wide range of people, being 16 stone, sparring with someone who is 10 stone, I use my common sense, but when I work with a Polish guy, similar size, about 10 years younger, I like to test myself, as does he, if he or I are not up for it, it's play time.
     

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