Systema Christian roots? MA's effects on the soul?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Filipmania, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Are you going to the Map meet this year, if you are we can have a play, as long as it stays as playing.
     
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  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    My question was how did a non sparring martial art (systema) deal with a sparring intensive martial art (BJJ), a single data point of using it in SD once doesn't hold any real value for that question, but thanks for the reply.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thanks for the offer, I'm unlikely too at the moment, but if I do, I will.
     
  4. Filipmania

    Filipmania New Member

    Like I've said, there's pressure testing in Systema, even my entire club ganging up on one person and you/me trying to not get caught and hit but instead neutralize, that and free for all forms get rough
     
  5. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Are you going to the Map meet this year, if you are we can have a play, as long as it stays as playing.
    Systema is a sparring art, it is the only way to stay Sharpe, practice distance and timing, everything we do is partner or group based, the only time we work as a single is warm up and down, or a health class.
     
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  6. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    This week fir example, we have been working on countering multiple attackers, one armed with a knife, one not, but they swop from time to time.
     
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    When you 'spar' how often is the other person also not trying to lose?

    If your not losing at least 50% of the time, your not sparring, your playing.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Compliancy doesn't have to be scripted, and it doesn't have to be conscious.

    Motivation can provide some very skewed dynamics, even in "free play". If there are set "goodies" and "baddies" in an exercise, the "baddies" will tend to under-perform and give the "goodie" a lot of slack. There is some weird psychology behind it.

    Baddies in real life think they are the hero. Everyone in an exercise has to be in it to win it to get a realistic dynamic going on.

    Old bloke; I'm not saying that I'm doubting your experience, but it sounds very different to every Systema video I've ever seen (which is a good few hours worth over the years).
     
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  9. Filipmania

    Filipmania New Member

    "If your not losing at least 50% of the time, your not sparring, your playing."
    Depends with who you're sparring, but we have a everyone will try something out with everyone mechanism

    David Harrison
    At that point it's not even about the art but the people, I've been advised against most MMA clubs in my town because there's mostly louzy people in them, and at least one BJJ club was louzy enough to want my Systema instructor to hold a BJJ seminar for them(they're "friends" tho), I mean we have ground work 100% but really.

    Videos doesn't always represent the whole truth, demonstrations are always somewhat fake because of the sheer demonstration part, I suspect there's some live sparring footage in every club but more often than not it's not that impressive to present because it ends up looking like wrestling or box, which most of the newish members default to using or they simply have a hole in their experience(this from experience because we had a few members ready to be considered assistants but they just leave :/ it looks promising with who's there in it now tho). Kind of a paradox because you should want to overcome this wall of never getting the bare truth but it's like lower belt's ruining the dignity of their arts
    Systema bases itself on what we all naturally knew, results come e.g push a small child and he/she collapses in his/her legs, but push an average adult and they drop like a board.
    There's real videos tho, I'm aiming to become a public figure in Systema for my town

    Btw Old bloke how's Hapkido? I wish to try out a somewhat modern school called Hapkiwan
     
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  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's the interesting thing though - it isn't.

    You can entirely change the dynamic of an exercise with the brief you give the participants.

    Here's an experiment you can do to illustrate my point:

    Set up a multiple attacker free play exercise. It will consist of two phases. Don't tell any of the participants about the aim of the experiment, or tell them in advance what they will be doing.

    Phase 1: Tell the solo person that they are the "defender", and the group are bad guys wanting to attack them. Run this exercise a few times.

    Phase 2: Tell the group that the solo person is the bad guy, and they must work as a team to subdue them.

    If there is no compliancy, then the two scenarios should play out in a similar fashion to each other. An observer walking in would not be able to tell the two phases apart.

    I'd love to hear your results if you run this little experiment. :)
     
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  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac "BJJ Over 40" club member Moderator Supporter

    Ah, but the claim in the OP concerns "monks," emphasis on "monks," and because it's Russian we can safely say these were Eastern Orthodox monks. I'm Orthodox myself, so I've read about and heard about Orthodox monks -- in particular, their history and their lifestyle. The claim that they had a fighting style at all, is wholly utterly 100% absolutely inconsistent with everything that I know about Orthodox monks. So, that's that. (shrug)
     
  12. Filipmania

    Filipmania New Member

    David
    Well the closest to a good guy act was VIP protection, I mean I'm not the instructor but what do you mean, do I switch the solo person? Phase 2 sounds like a nicer situation but in a nutshell the same situation is already present in Phase 1, many vs one

    aikiMac
    Well I'm orhtodox myself too but it might be implied, it wasn't my claim in a nutshell but hearsay, I'll look up the connection and ask about it
    Edit:
    Systema Vasiliev. Russian Martial Art
    it's there on the site lol
     
  13. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Our classes will be as follows, each month we will have a topic, this month for us is multiple strikes with multiple attackers (last month ground work, next month may be knife or stick, but all evolve the 4 principles) after the warm up, we pair off, the skills are performed slowly, a bit more complexity is added with a bit more speed if the student is comfortable with it, and every 10-15 mins we swop partners, this is the play/explore stage, the last 1/3 of the class it is up to the paired group (a group could be 2,3 5, or the whole class together) on how fast and deep/heavy, but we must keep the breathwork, tension, posture and free movement principles in our work, we have no A will perform a roundhouse, B must avoid and counter strike. As the month progresses as does the play and sparring and added elements, in the last week of the month, we (in our school) have pressure week, a large circle is formed, 1 person in the middle, a volunteer or opponent is called, 3-5 mins depending on class size sparring season, anything goes apart from eye gouging and deliberate kicks to the groin, but you must try to use some of the element from that months training and keep the 4 principles, obviously with students that are new or not so experienced it is more controlled, you are asked at the end of your turn, what you thought you did well, not so well, and what you would do different next time, the instructor will give his opinion. So there is time to play/experiment, but there is also proper sparring. Bu I agree students need to attend regularly to benefit from it, myself 2 hrs Monday night, 3hrs Tuesday night, 2 hrs Thursday morning, 3 hrs Thursday night, 2 hrs sat morning, plus 1 hr every morning at home apart from thurs and sat, plus always working on linking my breath with my movements.
     
  14. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    I no longer attend a school, as it was dispanded, but really enjoyed Hapkido, although, I would not train in it along side you Systema, most Korean arts strike on an exhale, this would be counter productive to your striking on any part of the breath. The locks take downs, and some other elements can enhance your systema, myself at the moment am working on bringing ridgehand to my Systema, and the shovel kick works really well in systema.
     
  15. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    As with most MA the very origins of its creation are somewhat cloudy, in Systema, part of the philosophy is very similar to the Orthodox beliefs, we try at all costs to avoid confrontation, but if we have to fight we are ready, having said that the approach is similar to Aikido, we strive to control the opponent, and take away their will to fight, yes we strike, but at different depths, it is not our aim to destroy, but to control opponents by controlling ourselves, however we do have the power and the techniques should we need them. Did the monks have defend themselves? Probably, did they use a form of MA? I don't know, but the very fact the Orthodox religion is an important part of Russian life, then it is no surprise it has influenced it's culture and MA.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't think you got my meaning.

    The two exercises are identical except for the roles given to the participants. It is surprising how dramatically the dynamic of an exercise can change if you change the roles of those in it.
     
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  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Having looked a little into this some years ago the only connection I think can be made is that Systema has (claims to have) taken its breathing work and perhaps any meditative work from Greek Orthodox Christianity. This was the Systema coming from Ryakbo. These days that kind of thing would ceratinly be considered as coming under the remit of Esoteric Christianity or Christian Mysticism rather than anything practiced in or coming from the mainstream of Orthodox Christianity. How and when exactly that transpired isn't or wasn't very clear, but that was what was claimed by Systema back then, and perhaps more specifically; the breathwork was linked to the Mount Athos Monastary IRRC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  18. aikiMac

    aikiMac "BJJ Over 40" club member Moderator Supporter

    No doubt that's true.

    Ah, that I can believe! :)
     
  19. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    Systema breathing may come from monks, but for the most part it comes from a Russian scientist named Konstantin Buteyko, whom in the 1950's claimed he had a cure for Asthma, with no credible scientific research he was not taken seriously, and ended up working for the Russian authorities. It is claimed it was his methodology that makes up Russian breath work.
     
  20. Filipmania

    Filipmania New Member

    I think I did get it tho, I said the 2nd phase sounds nicer somehow, maybe the mentality that you're the good guy

    Old bloke
    Oh interesting that someone else here comes from a disbanded school.
    I guess I wouldn't mind practicing exhale striking but what we do for the dynamic inhale&exhale part is mostly randomizing the breathing within excercise's like breathing in when you push up during a pushup.. don't breathe at all.. this or that. and on another note we don't have month specific topics but each training may or may not directly connect to the former

    Besides that first link I posted there's also something more on this on the site
    Systema Vasiliev. Russian Martial Art
     
  21. Old bloke

    Old bloke Active Member

    My school too is Vasiliev, my instructor and myself, have just come back (week before last) from Toronto, we trained with Vladimir and his class for 6 days.
     

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