Swordfish 08

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Stolenbjorn, Oct 26, 2008.

  1. Anders Linnard

    Anders Linnard New Member

    There is no mention of a step and several mentions of fighting taking place in zufechten. Meyer is the one who has best described these sections of the fight:

    "The three parts must be held in mind in every single device that you undertake to execute; namely that you should know with what cuts you will lay on against your opponent from the guards; then when you have laid on against him, how you shall further work in the middle with the Handwork, flying readily to the openings to keep the initiative when you have rushed on him in the Onset; and finally, how you may well and properly withdraw from him, if not with harm to him, then at least without injury to yourself."

    "Now the beginning I call the Onset (Zufechten), when one lays on against the opponent he has before him."

    "The middle I call the secondary work or Handwork (Handarbeit), when one stays against his opponent on the bind or further in his work and nimbly presses him"

    Clear as day.

    Obviously you should be wary of not rushing in to be pierced by a sword. But are you seriously claiming that this is all Ringeck means by asking you to be wary? Or could it possibly be that he means that you should not always just rush into the krieg and wind away? I have read here that we fight without regard to that there is someone else trying to kill us. Besides that there isn't anyone opposite us that is trying to kill us, (it is a competition and should be regarded as such), I feel that your tactics are careless, to say the least.

    So, you not liking it is now the measuring stick for what is a martial art? You obviously don't like to train with sticks either. And if you look at the parallells between longsword fencing and other weapons you would notice that the principles and most techniques are directly translated to other weapons, for example staff weapons. You idea of sticks only be for kids has no backing. Basically you don't accept anyone training in any different fashion than you do and if it looks different from what you do, then you disregard it as wrong. I suggest you stop underestimating other people.

    Well, now you are talking like a reenactor again. Nylon can be made to be better than wood, it is also preserved better and reduces injuries, which means more intent.

    And to beat you to it, I have browsed through this forum quickly and found comments on our videos in other places, where we are accused of fighting lightly and in a sport manner. Besides putting material online yourselves I would suggest you also examine Liechtenauer's and Ringeck's advise on when you should be fighting with force and when you should use light and rapid attacks.

    To end this post:
    You are wrong about the zufechten, you are wrong about there not being an abzug in German fencing (something you also avoided replying to) and you are too much concerned with what other people are doing instead of amending your own flaws.

    Regarding our videos you should know this: it is unedited footage from average sparring rounds. We train, we film, we put online. We are not afraid to show what we do, we are not afraid to show that we are not perfect. Because we know we are good and so does everyone who has fenced with us. We do this because we share our efforts. Look at our club site and you will find a translation of Ringeck into Swedish, Döbringer into English. You will find organisational material, pedagogical material and much more. Free to use. Go to Youtube and you will find videos of sparring and workout and of us making fools of ourselves and having a laugh. Why? Because we don't hide the fact that we are learning. Because we don't need to **** on other people's work to feel good about ourselves.

  2. Anders Linnard

    Anders Linnard New Member

    I missed this one:
    "The Onset takes place in the beginning using the cuts from the postures. The postures are of two kinds, namely the chief postures and the secondary postures, which arise from the chief postures"

    Couldn't be clearer.

  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    If zufechten is in range of reaching out with the sword, how can you use guards like nebenhut, schrankhut or even alber? You simply couldn't protect yourself in time. The quotes above do not mention footwork explicitly but then so much is not mentioned explicitly in the texts. Sometimes you need to apply basic martial principles from other arts that do have a surviving line to make sense of the manuals.
  4. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I don't know what he meant but he says be "wary". Nobody is saying that you should always wind. You only wind if your entry fails, then you happen to bind in the correct fashion and then you do these technique as described in the manual. If the second intention fails then you move on to next attack. You do not stop at first intention and simply back off and reset. The aim is the seize the vor and continue to hold it. The best way to achieve that is by constant pressure on your opponent.

    On the contrary, I have train extensively with sticks. Several years single stick and chinese sword (we used wooden wasters) and even with bokken learning aikiken. However I don't see the need for wooden and plastic weapons in german longsword. I can buy safe quality steel blunts for resonable price. It's not like in the medieval period where quality steel was at a premium.
    Ha, I find that amusing, you are perfectly entitled to train how you wish. However, when you post publically I am perfectly entitled to comment. Personally I find the public posting of swordsmanship irresponsible since I believe if you want to learn, you should be atleast willing to go and train it every week. I'm afriad I've encountered too many teenagers with wall hangers following things they have seen on youtube to allow my group to publically post material. However, the club door is always open and anyone over the age of 18 is free to observe. We also attend most of the major British Federation events.

    Indeed but light and quick at times is different from always light and sporty.
    If I speak like a reenactor then I guess I agree with some of their ideas. Certainly I know of some reenactors who I have seen with a sword that are better than many so called western martial artists. So I am not ashamed to be in good company as long as they fight well.
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well in your opinion I am wrong most like you are right but then since we only have a few fightbooks and they are written in a type of language not used in centuries I think more than likely we are both wrong. I atleast accept that point it seems you are not since you are certain I am wrong in an martial art where we can be certain of nothing.

    I'm not urinating on anyone. If you are unable to take any criticism then I fear you are in the wrong hobby. It is amusing but we have stand up rows over intention and technique with the Dawn Duellist Society, however when we criticise them and they criticise use nobody takes the huff. And yet when the slightest comment is made to some individuals they act like children.

    The Bear.
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Lets look at Goliath.

    "A general lesson in the Long Sword.
    If you will show art, send yourself to Left and Right in striking, and left with right is how you fence correctly and strongly. He who strikes after deserves a joyless art. Strike closely at him as you will, that nothing comes unto your hilt, head, or body, you allow no attack. With your entire body fence as you strongly can drive: Hear what is bad, fight not to left, if you are right, and if you are left, the right is very limiting; Before and After, the two things, all things come from one spring. Weak and Strong, Immediately: do mark this word, thus you will learn the work and weapon with art, know"

    Hmmm, you see this supports my argument. As I said we can be certain of nothing. You may still be right but the only way to test is in freeplay.

    The Bear.
  7. Axel P

    Axel P New Member

    Neither did I ;).

    The 16th century man did this for large parts of every day and for the purpose of self defence, not recreation, hence he was much more competent than any of us, I do' have to speculate on this. Some in the HEMA community are very quick to dismiss moves and "bouncing" as you say (I call it moving at speed) as they don't have the physical capabilities to do it safely themselves.

    I would always look for the quick and safe way in ;). You are very quick to dismiss Meyer, perhaps your one practice session a week covered in protection makes you a better judge of swordsmanship than him? :) He states several times that his teachings are useful both in earnest and in play. He is also a strong advocate of a very athlethic fencing style, alot of "leaps", moving around, leaning of the body etc, which I try to do as well in my fighting. If you don't like to do that then fine, I am sure there were as many different approaches to fighting back in those days as there were fighters. But don't tell me Im not doing HEMA ;).

    I did not say that my friend, I said that most people are more apprehensive of getting hit in tournament play than in casual freeplay as more is at stake. Sorry if I did not made that clear, English is not my first language.

    So you mean you don't have the sufficient control to freeplay? Do you ever allow yourself to get beaten in regular freeplay or can't you ever loose there either? How can it be a learning experience in that case? or is it only when something is at stake that you feel this way? It seems odd that a martial artist and instructor can not control himself more than that, we must certainly have very different training cultures :). No harm in that. Oh, and benchpress my zwerch all you want ;), I don't think people should use your size as an excuse not to fight you, they are not very nice to you in that case.

    Please point it out more specifically, I posted a lot of instances where I wind. The purpose of the videos what to show you that it is perfectly possible to wind with a nylon waster. All I see are two people fighting and (are trying to) neglecting each other the easy kill by counterwinding. That is also what happened, I was there ;). We do alot of freeplay with blunt steel, winding is a little bit slower but not that different, perhaps you trained with bad nylons? how much did you train with them?

    Don't we all? I really would suggest a little more control in that case, and your fingers will be more safe from harm. Honestly I can't see how you can accuse us of not fighting realistically enough while you don't allow hits to a very exposed target.

    Perhaps if you could post some videos of yourself and your crew freeplaying it would help this discussion along, all we have now are your words on that we do sport fencing and you are too tough for tournaments ;). Sorry I couldn't help that last one, no harm intended. Perhaps we are misunderstanding you as we can't see how you fight.

    It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just video some of your everyday sparring, just as we do.

    And thank you for your reply, though alot of things were left unanswered or were misunderstood, I understand that you are busy doing other stuff than surfing the web, and that my bad English can be hard to understand.

    We are all looking forward to see you freeplay in videos so we can take this discussion further!

  8. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I honestly don't know how good the average medievel fighter was. I think we all might surprised either way. I know if it was my butt on the line I would be at it constantly.
    Agree if you can bounce safely and it works then fair enough. I certainly can't because I would be wasting energy that is better spent (for me) on explosive entries.

    That's a fair point. However, I am fortunate to have access to people with many years training eastern arts and I listen very carefully to their ideas and principles.
    Absolutely, hey I'm saying I don't train it. Well it is works for you I am certainly not discounting it's value to you.

    hmmm this hasn't been my experience but we encounter different people.

    No no, freeplay is training. I get beat all the time because I am working on difference distance and timing and trying out new techniques and strategies.
    However, once I am not in training my mindset changes and well I become less nice. I put it down to growing up in Glasgow slums.

    I did only do only session and found them miserable. Could be they were duff nylons I don't know but I really like steel and I don't want to train with plastic when I can train safely with steel. I just don't see the point.

    Yeah but then we lose the edge and danger and that were the fun lies.

    Sadly it would be against club policy. However, there is an open invitation to you to visit Scotland and come train directly. Hey I'll even take you and show you the sites if you ever visit. There is also three other groups in Scotland which would happily train with you also.

    Alas being only a Scotsman, English too is my second language. I fear if I write as I speak, communication would be almost impossible. ;) However as usual I am shamed by your excellent grasp of English.

    The Bear.
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I'll get back to you on winding later if that is ok.

    The Bear.
  10. Anders Linnard

    Anders Linnard New Member

    Because that distance is also Zufechten.

    So? Or even better, you hit him with the first strike and win. Not always the reality of it all though.

    Once again, we use many different training weapons. Nylon is a tool that allows us to fight with intention and power.

    You are perfectly entitled to comment and constructive criticism is always welcome. I am also perfectly entitled to call you on your ego trip on this forum in the outskirts of the Hema community.
    If you want a clearer picture of what I think of internet bravado, then I refer you to this post:

    Oh, how ironically the tables have turned, all of a sudden you are preaching mutual understanding and acceptance. May I remind you that it was you that condemned our fighting as sport and our style as not being historical? But although you seem to have come to your senses in that regard I must point out that just because we cannot know for sure doesn’t mean that anything goes. The fact that you have missed abzug doesn’t mean that your interpretation is just as good as, say, someone who hasn’t missed the entire concept of abzug.

    I am very much able to take criticism and I usually don’t respond to people having opinions on the internet. You are however, now that you have been called upon it, disguising your urination as constructive criticism. I have seen your comments on Arma fights where you claim they are reckless. And we fight too lightly. Your opinion seems to be that anyone who doesn’t do what you do is wrong.

    Congratulations, you have just quoted a bad translation of Liechtenauer’s Merkeverse. You will find the exact same phrase in Ringeck, where you will also find glossa that explains the paragraph. Basically this quote is the same in the two manuscripts, and I suggest you look deeper in to what you are quoting next time. I think you will find that it has more nuances than: you must never do light cuts.

  11. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Well thats always a preference if you could win with one then most of the system wouldn't be required.

    Indeed and I fully support your right to your opinion but you certainly can't accuse us of being dull. In fact this thread alone has been most entertaining. However if you believe it is simply internet bravado then you are most welcome to put me to the test.

    No you misunderstand. I respect your right to do whatever you want but that doesn't mean I understand or accept it. Well I guess we'll have to wait until the opportunity arises where we can put our respective interpretations to the test. Our group is working with UK groups at the moment but hopefully in the next year we'll get to move out to Europe.

    Well that's tough luck I'm afriad, since we don't really and cannot know the truth opinion is all that exists. Arma was fighting without masks with steel weapons if you don't find that a little reckless then I would be surprised. In fact if we attempted that here in the UK we would most certainly lose our insurance. Which would in turn prohibit us from hiring a hall. As I have always said we train with the maximum intensity within a margin of safety.

    I didn't say never do light cuts, I said don't always do light cuts but it appears to be this is lost on you. Committed attacks are the core of the system I believe but I agree there is a place for light attacks.

    The Bear.
  12. Anders Linnard

    Anders Linnard New Member

    Regarding events I am planning on Dijon, Fightcamp and Swordfish and I know people are going to Vienna, not me though. I would love to cross swords.

    Regarding having opinions on how other people train. It is the condescending tone you use when talking about other groups that gets to me and your way of labelling your own choices as the only real martial way. And when I say you, I don't mean you exclusively, but also Rabid Hamster and others on this forum.

    Regarding light hits.ö We aim to use enough force and keep it tight. Sometimes we hit hard, sometimes light. There is a lot of advise on buffalos and people who make too big movements in Ringeck, Döbringer and other texts. We are not one sided, we explore HEMA, we do not define what it is exactly and how you should train it. An attitude that has served us greatly.

    I suggest you start relaxing your rules a bit regarding videos and equipment. Maybe you'll enjoy it and possibly you might even learn something. That bit about dragging the youth into dangerous swordly behaviour is just silly. You are not responsible for what stupid things other people do.

  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Great I look forward to it. I am currently selling my house once that is done I will have more options to travel.

    Anders I believe you do not understand the cultural context here. We are from Glasgow, here you state your opinion and it is up to others to disagree or agree. This can be unnerving for those unused to talking to us however unlike at lot of English speaking cultures we do change when demonstrated that we are wrong. Anyone we have encountered who fights better than us, we are ALL ears.

    Ah but the buffalo is different than someone entering with whole body movement and precise angles of entry. If you look at high level kendoka, to the untrained WMAist they would appear a buffalo however their control of measure, entry, posture and intent completely destroys that notion.

    There have been many suggestions of doing just that. It does mean we get treated as a "fringe" group by many because we don't publicise what we do, hell we don't even advertise and are only taken seriously by those who have trained with us. However principles aren't discarded because they are uncomfortable. Sword training shouldn't be for public consumption in my opinion and coming from the knife crime capital of the western world my feelings are especially strong on this. I have witnessed two real swordfights in my life, luckily none of the participants had any knowledge on using the weapon or someone would have died very quickly.

    The Bear.
  14. Anders Linnard

    Anders Linnard New Member

    And here I was thinking that was an internet thing...

    And these wannabe swordfighters were influenced by Youtube? Your principle is based on the assumption that showing serious martial art on YT will somehow increase crime and irresponsible behaviour. Not only do I think you are wrong, I also suggest that the opposite is true. We put a lot of effort in to being a part of the community, being public. So far we have nothing put positive feedback from police, parents, public and other martial artists.

  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    No we're like this in the flesh too. What we say online we say to people faces. Needless to say the UN doesn't have too many Glaswegan diplomats.

    Well I suggest you look at choson ninja and sacred fire dojo and their following for an example of when swords and youtube goes wrong.
    In the UK it is usually best to keep a low profile when you have anything to do with swords. If you get too well known some politician or bureaucrat will find some excuse to shut you down or worse we could be FORCED to only use nylon weapons.

    The Bear.
  16. Moberg

    Moberg New Member

    I read this tread whith great interest and amusement. A great thing about HEMA is that it has developed from being a obscure hobby among a couple of guys to a world wide collective research that wouldnt be possible without internet. So I think every discussion, transcription and videoclip enforces and strenghten HEMA.

    please Mr Bear, I'm very curious about YOU'r style, I'd love to see a clip. Don´t bother if some kids could see it. Threse a lot of things out there on the net that could be worse (at least I've been told). And even if you are Jackie Chan on crack I don´t think you could impress my boys (who´s 6 and 4) more than TMNT.

    I'm curious because I like to imply a more aggresive 'krieg'-style myself but Axel and Mr Linnard above just kick my ass 9 times out of 10. I love to see if I could learn anything from your style.

    And please clarify whats wrong with the sacred fire dojo. I only googled it for a short time as you suggested. To me he/they looked like having a great time and I just cant see whats wrong with that.

    /Mattias Moberg
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Anyone can come train with us, the door is open.

    Well if you think SFDojo is ok, I reckon we don't have too much to discuss.

    The Bear.
  18. Moberg

    Moberg New Member

    End of discussion that is. To bad.

    But symtomatic in a way. After having negative oppinions of one group/style and four pages of discussion later throw another group/style into the torchbin.

    After having spent 3 minutes at SFDojo's homepage I could clearly see that he/they wasn´t my cup of tea, but I wouldn't dream about making them a public fool on a forum.

    Please don´t take my neglect to your most generous invitation to take part of your technically fufilled and training as I'm not willing to continue to develop myself - it's just not practical for me. Or eventually after a decade or two I'm ready to take part of your secret docrine of perfection.

    Just as a last post, please do us the favour to post a clip that you DO recommend. Preferably a ´spar´-clip, I think i seen most of the instructional 'one-step' technique-demonstrations.

    Best regards
    Mattias Moberg
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yes however if you had bothered to ask, the nutball that is Dan Bowen has challenged me twice to a duel and also a 40 year practioner of Aikido. He has had NO formal training and yet runs self defense classes for women and teaches swordsmanship. So it's not exactly good clean fun.
    Why don't I believe in internet swordsmanship training well have a look at this thread.
    The only place should be working on swordsmanship is in a club under instruction. I would hate to be responsible for some teenager buying a hanwei hand and half and simply having a go watching what I did on the internet. You don't have to agree that is your choice.

    Umm how can it be secret if the door is open. If I've learned anything in 16 years martial arts training is that there are no secrets only hard dedicated training.

    Haven't come across anything that I would put up as a good example. I'm sure most groups have had good fights but I guess the cameras weren't there that day.

    The Bear.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2008

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