My thoughts / comments / questions: I think some people may have guessed, we looked around at what TKMA was available locally before we decided to stay with Kuk Sool. There are two new-ish TKD schools in the area, and they both seem to be TKD / HKD that also offer Gumdo. I watched what the students were doing one of them. But I haven't followed up as much at the other. The first thing I noticed them doing was the draw. I won't say it's wrong, since I really do not know. I will say that the draw they did was not what I was taught. If I'm seeing this accurately, are you holding the sheathed sword blade-up? We also spoke a little bit with the Tang Soo Do instructor at the local Y. He had been taught the same thing we were about drawing, although he knew different forms, some using the blade-up and other(s) the blade-down draw. http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1810734/5976172 I'm also noticing that the first part above is only stepping, the sword is left straight. That reminded me of a question MadMonk asked long ago, about how KSW starts with empty-hand training, whereas (IIRC) he said traditional way would have started with weapons. I have some thoughts on this that I might come back to. The second thing I noticed was the stepping. Keep in mind that the students I saw practice had probably been working with the sword for a few weeks. They used the sidestep, like the bottom of the "L" in the first part of the above video, with their cuts. (Our cut #1.) I thought that was very strange. We've stepped forward in our cutting practice, and diagonal in blocking, but I don't recall practicing sidesteps. On the other hand, the exercises in Bruce's video below look relatively familiar: http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1810813/5976251
I'm no expert, but let me wade in here with my opinion... First, let me clarify just a bit. I'm going to assume when you say "blade up draw" you refer to the fact that the sword while still in the scabbard is blade up, not that the cut made as you draw is upward. Holding the sword in its case with the blade pointing up actually allows for a downward slice as you draw. AFAIK this is a development adopted by the Japanese and never fully embraced by the Koreans. Sports such as Iaido which ARE practiced in Korea may have influenced modern KMA, but that's purely a speculation on my part as IDK for certain. I couldn't get the second video to load, but the first reminded me more of what KSW calls "sword meditation" rather than a hyung. As for the side-stepping question, while such stepping isn't incorporated in KSW sword hyung (at least as it was depicted in the video), it's usually taught within the first 3 lessons on sparring, and IMO whether you're sparring empty handed or with a weapon wouldn't greatly affect how you move about. FWIW, this side-step footwork isn't employed in our non-weapon hyung either. EDIT: Does this look familiar? It's an Iaido graphic depicting sword etiquette.
Before the Japanese sword arts began having any influence on the Yi dynasty, the Chinese arts were firmly entrenched. With relative rare exception, you see zero emphasis on sword drawing in CMA & outside of modern Korean arts, the same is true. There are several reasons for this. The primary one is based on the shear variety of swords available & methods for carrying them. Swords were rarely thrust through the belt in the manner of the "standardized" Japanese katana, but rather, were often carried in hand. There was no need for developing battojutsu styles of drawing. The swords were drawn & scabbards tossed aside. Further, Korea never went through a dueling phase like Japan did. A study of the Koryu finds an extreme difference in sword work comparing early battlefield styles to later dueling styles. The recorded sword techniques of pre-Occupation KMA make no reference to drawing. They were battlefield CMA-influenced sets. Your sword was already drawn. There was no need to wait for the enemy to close.
The wicker shield is mentioned in the MYDBTJ (chapter 8, book 3) and was used in conjunction with a sword, not as a stand-alone weapon. So while I'll agree with the quoted statement WRT swords advocating the use of both hands, I would tend to believe that if using a single handed broadsword (with a sheath) that the scabbard might be held onto and used as a parrying device in combat. Just a thought, MM108, YMMV.
This is probably a bit :topic:, but I have seen KSW address the aggressive nature of Japanese sword drawing versus the passive nature of the Korean draw many times in KSW material (Sword Handbook, Fighting Weapons of KMA [Hallander & Suh] etc.) This post simply reminded me of it. The methods I learned in Iaido (with the blade upward, through the obi [dee] and hakama [go gwa]) does not dictate that a downward cut is made with the draw. This type of wear DOES allow for this movement, but it is by no means the only way, or even most predominant way to make the draw. Usually the saya (scabbard etc.) is rotated as you "unlock" the blade with your thumb so that the draw/cut can be made at any angle desired. This can be vertically in a large arc where the downward cut it made, but also horizontally, so the draw/cut is made across the mid section, additionally, the saya can be rotated downward so an upward cut/block/parry etc it made. Interestingly, this is also how the Haidong Gumdo folks use their blades. I would say they employ the alternate draw angles more than most Iaido systems, but they are present in both. FWIW.
Holy Crap....!!! What have I gotten myself into!!!! I'll do the best I can to pitch-in where possible. Lets start with carrying the sword. Practically everyone who has done any Asian sword is familiar with the Japanese method of thrusting a sword or pair of swords through the belt (J. "obi") and this has become a kind of defacto standard for SSANG SOO DO practice even in Korea, never mind that the Koreans did not use such belts. So how were swords carried? a.) swords could simply carried (sheathed) in the hand by the own or by the owners servant. In this way a sword drawn to serve left the sheath cast to one side or in the hands of the servant. b.) http://midwesthapkido.com/sword_parts.htm Note in the picture that the sword is suspended from a rather long cord (K. "jul"), edge-down. Though shown carried at the hip, the jul can be adjusted such that the long-sword is carried across the back. BTW: The jul in its own right becomes a weapon for snaring, binding or choking as required following the loss of the sword. c.) A sword can be suspended from a sash (or cord as in the case of cavalry) by a clip (K. "tidon") which allows the sword to be rotated back and out of the way, or rotated forward to be drawn. Since the clip is not permanently attached the sheath can be discarded. My QING Geom still has its tidon which I keep as a matter authenticity more than anything else. BTW: Battlefield use of the sword usually entailed leaving the sheath with one's baggage in the encampment. Not only did this avoid being encumbered by a useless bit of equiptment, but also provided a symbolic gesture among the troops that noone intended to put their sword away until the goal was accomplished (IE. "Never retreat in battle") FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
In the matter of "fast draw" there are a couple of comments to remember. First off the whole concept of "drawing and cutting" was considered de classe in Confucian society. As Monk pointed out the Koreans did not go through the sort of "dojo storming" and duelling as did the Japanese culture. Neo-Confucianism of Korea has often caused orthodox Chinese to remark that the Korean Neo-Confucian was "more Chinese than the Chinese" in this regard. There is even a line of though that holds that architecture of the swords themselves was modified such that the tips of Korean swords tend to had a much more blunted profile, the long kissaki of the Japanese sabre and the tip of the Chinese jian considered "barbaric" in their suggestion of unrefined aggression. The matter of practicing to draw and cut simultaneously was considered comparable to the symbolism one see in American movies of the 50-s and 60-s where the "bad boy" character is shown snapping a switchblade. The single exception to this attitude was the matter of finding oneself in a "position of disadvantage". For this reason it is possible to identify at least two techniques in the introductory hyung of HWARANG GEOM BEOP where a sword is snatched from its sheath and deployed. One is the opening movement of the second form (see: "Hyo Geom") which begins with a person on the run; and the opening of the fourth form (see: "Yong Geom") where a person is twice attacked---first with a slash and then with a thrust--- and counters with a draw and cut while deflecting the second attack with a turn. Regarding such "ambushes" Confucian beliefs cut a person some slack, as it were. FWIW. BTW: Just to mention in passing: In Korean sword it really does not matter if the sword is carried edge-up or edge-down as all Korean swords are drawn by first rotating the sheath 90 degrees. In this acquired position the blade rides out of the sheath on the spine (K. "Kal Deung" ( 칼 등 ) or more correctly the "ridge" (K. "Kal Be"( 칼 배 ) of the blade. Resheathing is simply the reverse. Best Wishes, Bruce
I was thinking that this might also be the time to share where the "cutting edge" (no pun intended) lay in my own research concerning Korean sword. Currently the single easiest place to garner information is in regard of the BUTOKUKAI-CHOSON and the development of KENDO in Korean society, its acceptance into the public school curriculum and the history of various competitions among Korean and Japanese practitioners during the Occupation. Since KENDO has survived into Post-Occupation Korea albeit "repackaged" as KUMDO tracking influences here are not too difficult. A slightly more difficult (and more sensitive) area of investigation is the role played by the Japanese military in training identified units and individuals in Japanese military sabre after the fashion of TOYAMA-RYU. The sensitive nature of Koreans training to serve in the Japanese military in such places as Manchuria and Japan does not leave individuals much willing to discuss their association with this part of Korean history. Lastly, there is the matter of Japanese training in the Korean Police Academy. Attitudes in Japan at the close of the 19th Century were bitter among Japanese conservatives who saw the Meiji Restoration strip priveleged Samurai families of the last vestiges of their standing. The newly restructured Japanese Police were being instructed in European sabre methods by German and French police instuctors and the European sabre was being distributed as the preferred side-arm to the Japanese metropolitan police. Reactionary factions attempted to rebel at these changes resulting in the Satsuma Rebellion (yes...."the one led by Tom Cruise") and a sop thrown to these elements was, in part, the establishment of the BUTOKUKAI as a safeguard against the loss of Japanese martial traditions. In doing research though, it is very difficult to find information on that brief period when Japanese cadre were sharing their European-style handling. There is a Police Museum in Seoul which may hold some information if anyone is game. So this is where I am at in my own research. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
re: dueling The custom of the day was not to challenge someone, but rather to ask for a "lesson". This gave ample face-saving opportunities, both in the challenged's opportunity to refuse, or to set terms, as well as in the challenger's ability to save face in a loss.
The second video should work now, I recopied the link. Yes, the second video reminded me even more of the meditations. Only the bowing, really. The sword breathing meditations I learned leave the sword on the ground, for the sword cutting meditations I don't remember any sustained holding of the sword. And where is Ferran when we could use him? :cry:
Just a note that you might want to rethink this a bit... The Korean draw I know is an upward cut, not at all passive.
The Toyama Rikugun Senmon Gakko (戸山陸軍専門学校 - The Toyama Military Academy) taught kendo from it's inception in 1873 until it's closure. Jukenjutsu (銃剣術 - Rifle & Bayonet techniques) was formed in the Meiji-jidai and was based on Sojutsu (槍術 - Spear techniques) from Saburi-ryu, Hozoin-ryu, Kan-ryu & on French and later, British army bayonet fighting techniques. Toyama Gunto Soho (now Toyama-ryu battodo) was not taught until 1925, when it was formalized by Nakayama Hakudo (of Muso Shinden-ryu fame) and Takano Sasaburo, who were both noted kendoka & iaidoka. Toyama Gunto Soho mainly takes it's influences from Omori-ryu & Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu and in someways, is a simpler version adapted for military use. Toyama Rikugun Senmon Gakko is now a United States Army barracks. Actually, the Japanese police forces during the meiji-jidai were adapting koryu bujutsu techniques for law enforcment. The system was called Keishi-ryu (Or Keishicho-ryu) and was an amalgamation of several techniques from koryu bujutsu ryuha. Keishi-ryu taught kenjutsu, iaijutsu and jujutsu. There were 10 kenjutsu kata, 5 tachi-iai kata and 13 jujutsu kata. The kenjutsu kata came from Jikishinkage-ryu, Hokushin Itto-ryu, Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu, Kurama-ryu, Tatsumi-ryu, Asayama Ichiden-ryu, Kyoshin Meichi-ryu, Yagyu-ryu, Jigen-ryu and Shindo Munen-ryu. The Keishi-ryu iai kata came from Tatsumi-ryu, Kyoshin Meichi-ryu, Tamiya-ryu, Asayama-ryu & Shindo Munen-ryu. These were the official techniques of the Japanese Imperial police force during the Meiji and Taisho Jidai. Keishi-ryu kenjutsu is still active, I saw it demonstrated at Meiji Jingu Kobudo demonstration for the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai about 6 years ago. Hope this helps.
All excellent information, Kogusoku, and jives exactly with my own information. Where I need more help is in interfacing this information with the transfer to Korean practices. Let offer a couple of examples. In the matter of TOYAMA-RYU it is simply a matter of historic record how the practices developed, where they were taught, who taught them and when. Even after WW II it is possible to trace this. However, it is almost impossible to identify Koreans who were trained at TOYAMA, or any other military institutions run by the Japanese including the Officers Institute in Manchuria. Further there is almost no information on where individuals such as Nakamura taught, and who attended those events, on those occasions when he came to the continent. Regarding the KEISHI-RYU, here are the notes that I have. "....................................... The Japanese Police Revolt of 1887 was due in no small part to the abreaction of the former military elite resisting reform suggested by the influence of Western culture. The police had established the Batto-tai (“Drawn-sword Unit”) during the 1877 Satsuma Rebellion, though their established style, “Keishicho Ryu” (“Police Department Style”) was codified in 1886 from the efforts of outstanding Kenshi, representing various Ryu, who had been hired by the department in 1880. A set of ten unique kata, or sword forms (“Keishicho Gekkan Kata”), from six different existing styles of the day , were later the inspiration for the Dai Nippon Butokukai Kendo Kata in 1906. ......................................." As the Police reforms began soon after the Restoration, there were more than a few years where the German and French influence could have been felt. I think this as well as the nature of the material taught at the Korean Academy following the KABO Reforms (1894) needs to be enhanced. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Okay, so I know I opened the door for a broad conversation with my not-quite-questions, but I did post this in the Kuk Sool forum. So how does all of that relate back to the sword training in Kuk Sool Won?
I'm going to hold off a bit posting in the hopes that we might more info along these lines as well. Best Wishes, Bruce
I don't know how that all relates back to Kuk Sool Won. If we look at how sword training is related to KSW as the modern day practice we know that it is derived from the Royal Court part of the system and KSN's tutalige from his instructors. I know you probably know that already. Besides the obvious I think that just because KSW sword technique does not have some of the movements, or drawing tecniques as seen in other KMA's, CMA's, or JMA's, that does not mean that those types of techniques were never use in Korea. Kuk Sool as it was designed is an eclectic(sp) MA. This mean that it incorporates varius techniques and martail arts to make up the system. If those techniques were either not learned or deemed not within the scope of what one wanted to incorporate then perhaps that is the reason there not taught in KSW today. Hope this helps. Obewan
Although you may be acutely aware of this article, Ember, just in case others are not, let's provide a link, shall we? Black Belt Magazine, MAR 1999 - "Korean Swordsmanship" The photo in the upper left corner of page 36 (third to last page in the PDF), clearly demonstrates the upward cut you (Ember Starsong) mentioned that is part of the drawing technique taught in KSW.
