Striking with the wrist?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by RAGINGbuddha, Feb 25, 2006.

  1. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    It has it's application when you've used a gum sau to block an incoming knee or kick ad there's a punch following up from the same side. A quick upward fook sau, aimed at the biceps is incredibly painful if done correctly.

    You'll find that it is part of the training of the vast majority of wing chun schools and is a technique from the first form.
     
  2. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    Thanks, I'd forgotten about that one. I was taught that one much more than the one I was talking about which was a fook sau to the chin, which I always thought was nonsense.

    However, I also think this one's nonsense, as a) it's difficult to aim and b) it's chasing hands, oh, and c) it may be painful but it isn't going to stop their punch from hitting you, and it has less chance of progressively damaging the bicep to prevent further shots than say a good pak sau, or even punch to their upper arms which also have the benefit of being easier to pull off.

    I think you'll find you haven't been to the vast majority of wing chun schools!:p ... And no, what I've found in the many branches of wing chun I've met and trained with that although it's been described as an application from slt and shown in a two-person co-operative drill, it has in fact NEVER been pulled off at speed in sparring or a non-co-operative drill: therefore your definition of 'being part of the training' would differ from mine somewhat but thanks for playing! 'Part of the theory' maybe...

    The same move was more efficiently and believably explained and demonstrated to me as being a two-way splitting cover motion (so in fact the downward gum/jut/jum is going at the same time but in the opposite direction as the upward fook) to open a guard and provide a good entry with either hand. It has a name in this application but I forget what it is. It then prepares you for progression to the splitting lan sau in chum kiu.

    Anyway, this'll be about all I have to say about it on this thread as I don't want to hijack it to make it yet another wing chun thread! :eek:
     
  3. namaste

    namaste New Member

    Same here.
     
  4. someotherguy

    someotherguy Valued Member

    Mr Punch, I pretty much agree with you, except...

    It isn't about it having small bones, it is about the alignment of these small bones and how I think they are in a weaker orientation when positioned as some people described for the "fook sau" shaped strike. As far as I am aware, people do not strike boards with their wrist, but with their hand...which is why the hand can undergo elastic deformation during the impact.

    huh? so I could punch with my hand and wrist in any orientation, and take the impact on any area of the hand and at any angle, and any potential breakage had nothing to do with the mechanical alignment of my hand?

    Firstly, they are not x-rays of martial artists. Secondly, the repairs to broken bones make them stronger but less flexible (i.e. more brittle) and any fusion of separate wrist bones would greater reduce movement. And thirdly, once damaged, cartilage can never heal.

    This is true, but it doesn't make a joint any less susceptible to damage, and if you take an impact that travels through bone at an angle then there is still an increased chance of breakage.

    But didn't you know that a damp cloth can be a very effective weapon? I've seen James Bond use to disarm a knife fighter.
     
  5. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    Yes, let's....

    When I attempted to explain how to properly utilize a wrist strike in the mantis style, that was your response. Sorry, but when you act so smart-assed as a response to someone attempting to explain a technique you appear to have minimal knowledge about, I can hardly be faulted for not taking any further replies seriously. We can either discuss this, or you can insult me again, your choice.

    The problem with your premise is that you are assuming that we "punch" with this type of hand position. We do not. A mantis hand (choose your name for the technique, that's what my school calls it) has very specific applications and is not used in the same manner in which one would thow a straight punch or a jab. Unless you're willing to accept how the strike is used, you will continue to lump all hand strikes together as "punches", and that is an incorrect grouping. Every hand strike I have learned has a specific application and specific way of using that. In order to proceed with this discussion in any meaningful manner, we have to agree that this is true, and you don't seem to accept that based on your usage of a very specific terminology.

    Again, you have what appears to be no experience with this particular style, so perhaps instead of telling me I can use my little finger and testicles as a weapon, you should perhaps ask how a mantis strike is used. You might actually learn something about a style with which you are obvioiusly unfamiliar. Your choice. Oh, yeah, and I did explain which portion of the arm is used in a mantis strike, and that's when you decided to be a smartass. As I said earlier, that's not exactly encouraging me to attempt any meaningful dialogue.

    That's fine and good, but again, if you have little to no knowlegde of how any specific style utilizes these strikes, perhaps you should ask questions before making comments. It's very easy to dismiss a strike you're unfamiliar with; perhaps if you ask questions in an adult manner instead of insulting people who disagree with you, you may learn something. If you want to know how these strikes are utilized, ASK.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    There is a lot of truth in this, IMHO.

    If one is to use a Bent Wrist Strike, it becomes very clear that many of the strikes using the bent wrist are not what they seem when put into actual application.

    It is possible to apply a powerful strike with the top of the bent wrist to say the floating ribs. Because the striking surface is small, this strike yields very good pounds per square inch and can really hurt the target. Is there a risk of self injury... hell yes. The more power put into the strike, the more damage and the more risk of injury to yourself.

    How does one minimize the risk of self-injury with a bent wrist strike? Through experience one learns to use the strike with less range of motion and less power.

    One primary target for a bent wrist strike is the jaw. How can this strike be used? Try chopping the target to the side of the neck and then use the wrist strike to knock the jaw (turning the head and rising the chin). This opens up the throat as a target for a choke or strike.

    The range of motion is less than six inches.

    Another common taught use of the bent wrist strike is as a block. Well it actually would be a strike that follows a slap block... but anyway, in actual application, if it is used as a block (not a strike) then it turns out that it is better to use the forearm to block. The form LOOKS like a wrist strike, but the application is using the forearm to block.

    Again, the range of motion is limited, no big circular movements, just a linear short movement.
     
  7. David

    David Mostly AFK, these days

    OOOHHH! Yin and Yang hehe.

    I've never hurt my wrist using it properly for strikes and blocks. I have made myself sick by whacking the soft inner wrist area where the blood vessels are. Yuck!

    Rgds,
    David
     
  8. El Tejon

    El Tejon MAP'scrazyuncle

    Rage, as my cousin Dark and others have mentioned, the bent wrist is used in praying mantis. Usually applied to solar plexus, groin or to chin. (Although I have used it as a jab in sparring or sticky hands for distraction). It is sometimes referred to as "the third elbow."

    It is featured on such forms as White Ape steals the Peach, Praying Mantis Steals the Peach, Praying Mantis Exits the Cave and Conceal the Hard. Here's two members of my club performing the two man set of White Ape Steals the Peach which uses the mantis hand (yes, we know it needs work but hey, it is an example): http://www.kung-fu.addr.com/video-1.html
     
  9. Bjoern_VT

    Bjoern_VT Valued Member

    @Bil Gee and some others:

    if you realy beliebe the last part of the SLT is an applicaion to free your arms, you really should run away fro myour school asap.....

    a fook is hitting with the wrist?


    OMFG you guys made my day...

    anyway, there must be big times weird interpretations of the wc forms...... enjoy!
     
  10. Folkuen

    Folkuen Banned Banned

    Isn't the last section of SLT supposed to be teaching trap/punching combination?

    Anyhow, thats a good point... though there are alot of escape moves in that form, it does not necessarilly have to be used that way.

    A folk sau is supposed to be practiced in the form without any strength or tension being within the hand. I was shown though, that you should keep it completely relaxed and move it slowly along jung sinwai.... however, the forms being performed correctly in practice, are also not the exact way to apply it in a situation outside of class or training right?

    I do not think the wrist should be used to strike like a pentetration punch or any other kind of direct striking moves...The reason folk sau is not to be used that way, is probobly more than just because the arm is not structured that way... If you train your wrists correctly, you can twist or push them into almost anyway shape or form without injury, yet it is not an injury guarantee either way.

    I always thought it was more used for hooking and/or pushing through defenses to create following moves into bridging, trapping, etc,... rather than to try and break boards or applicably cause any real damage as a direct striking method. Then again, it just depends on your body structure.
     
  11. NE-Mantis

    NE-Mantis New Member

    wrist strikes are fine

    My background is Wah Lum Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis. Wah Lum uses it for blocking as well as striking. However alot of people don't realise it is not the actual wrist joint striking, but actually the upper end of the forearm with the wrist bent fully into a mantis claw. Usually the strikes are targeting soft point but is used against the temple and lighter bones of the opponents body.
     
  12. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    I think I'll stick with my school, and I've found the knife hand scraping down the arm with a simultaneous jut-sau movement to be a very effective and painful way of releasing a grip on the wrist. What do you think it's for?
     
  13. someotherguy

    someotherguy Valued Member

    From what I understand the fok sau is just a relaxed hand that monitors, feels and responds to the energies from an opponent. You don't hit someone with it

    I'd prefer to use something more practical with more reach - a punch.

    It is just the static version of essentially the same movements found at the end of the 2nd form. It is about using one hand to trap both of theirs and having a free hand. So your idea of using 2 hands to deal with 1 of theirs is pretty much at odds with the principle behind that part of the form
     
  14. someotherguy

    someotherguy Valued Member

  15. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Do you never use a double lap sau?
     
  16. DiamondBack

    DiamondBack New Member

    Striking with the Wrist

    In DiamondBack Eskrima (DBE) we have several strikes with the wrist.

    Wrist Up Fingers Down - Strike Under the chin from chest/shoulder Palm.
    Not a hard strike but packs a whallop.

    Fingers Up (Like Palm Heel but drop the inside of the wrist on the bridge of the nose.

    These 2 techniques are like Paint Up, Paint Down in Karate Kid.

    We also use the outside of the wrist and the bone at the bottom of the palm on the pinky side to slice / cut through the opponents neck in the Carotid Sinus areas.

    We use the inside of the wrist like a TKD ridgehand to the top of the trapezius where it joins the neck.
     
  17. Bjoern_VT

    Bjoern_VT Valued Member

    ummmmm I never saw your answer before today sorry :(

    OK, I give you something to think about... That Mr Badguy hold one of your wirsts with one of his hands and you start fighting the holding hand, which is as immobile as yours, so useless at that time using your second hand, so he has your whole upper body and head free for a punch with his Free arm? Sounds smart to me....

    Ever thought about principles to learn? How do you punch? What ist important to be able topunch in a safe manner? What is the basic problem (or standart mistake why one gets hit to easily) in Ving Tsun fighting?
    If you find that answer you are on a way to learn something reasonable ....

    someotherguy no, the fok sao and tan sao are training methods to reduce certain mistakes that are due to the unnatural wa of punching in Ving Tsun....
     
  18. TenTigers

    TenTigers Valued Member

    [​IMG]

    In Hung-Ga as well as SPM, we use the back of the wrist for striking. The strikes are to the small bones in the face,nose,side of jaw, and temple mostly.
    However, since we use the metal pieces in the wrist-as you can see in the pic, we are not as vulnerable.
    ok, that last part was not exactly being trutheful.
     
  19. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    we use the back of the wrist also, for block and attack, I've noticed it can be used as a very painful block as I've noticed in comparison to other blocks.

    I was always under the impression that you were hitting with the top of the forearm moreso than the wrist.
     
  20. BlindClown

    BlindClown tinit


    Never heard of attacking with **** Sau...
     

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