Stick life-expectancy?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by progdan, Jun 1, 2009.

  1. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    Obviously wacking sticks against people, pads and other sticks is going to cause wear and tear on the sticks themselves, just wondering how often people here end up needing to replace them? I have a pair of rattan sticks and I've been training for a couple of months now and they're just about had it, but that's not even with ultra-intense training, what about some of you other guys, how long do they last? And is one type better to get when I replace them?
     
  2. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    When I was tought, and in no way was this FMA but just stick work I never used the same sticks for everything. I had the following :

    Rattan for demo work - anything else and I found they fall apart if your blasting away with them

    Foam for sparring

    Hickory / Red Oak for pad work, drills and to help get used to the weight and speed. I also have a pair made from solid nylon

    I could be wrong but i found that was the best use for me and when I was taught, as i said in no way shape or foam am I a FM practitioner
     
  3. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    Actually we have foam ones for sparring also, but some of the drills we use the rattan sticks with a partner also. I'm not worried about it, I was just interested in how everyone else gets on with their sticks. :)
     
  4. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    progdan you want to get a set of these made :

    [​IMG]

    Solid nylon with aluminium or brass caps, these are custom made by me :)
     
  5. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I've had rattan sticks last for years and other rattan sticks snap right in half on their first night (which is pretty unusual for rattan in the first place).

    But a few months sounds reasonable enough.

    A hardwood (e.g., bahi or kamagong) would be more resilient. But more expensive, heavier, etc. I don't know anyone who regularly uses kamagong or bahi in place of rattan. That's also probably because it would lay waste to your partner's rattan sticks.


    Stuart
     
  6. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    You can get stronger sticks - I have some labanika's from Pat and Lucy O'Malley's place [eskrimador supplies], they are close node rattan so MUCH harder. I also have some Bahi wood swords (which I think is coconut tree or something), kamagong [sp?] is another hardwood. you can get bahi and kamagong sticks that should last for aaaages on bags/ropes/tyres. I haven't tried the nylon but I'd expect those also last a long time - I know some Dog Brothers people use them.

    BUT, if you're doing two man drills and the other guy has rattan, he won't be happy when your lead weight kamagong stick ruins his!
    One guy I have trained with uses tiger wood rattan, I think from [oriental weaponry]. He's used those same sticks for as long as I've known him.

    In summary, I agree with Dougbug.
    rattan for 2 man drills
    foam for sparring
    hardwood for solo training, wrist strength etc.
     
  7. Martial novice

    Martial novice Valued Member

    You can tell Stuart's trained longer, it's all about timing!
     
  8. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    That looks great! How much do you charge?
     
  9. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    How long and thick do you want it (the end caps are 1 - 2 inches long) ? I'll get a cost if you want one or free if I have enough Nylon.... Do you want to the end caps to be screwed in (can take a photo for you if you like) The nylon is laminated so it can be cleaned easy
     
  10. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    Funny, it looks just like a fluorescent lightbulb... :p
     
  11. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    I've never thought of them like that before!
     
  12. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    When you first posted it, I actually thought you were kidding, and were suggesting swinging those around! haha, silly me. Somehow I don't think fluro tubes would last to well smashing them against each other lol...

    But yeah they look like an interesting concept, nice work. :)
     
  13. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    Yeah I just wanted something a bit different really I like to stand out a little bit and know what stuff is mine. I do find them a good training tool the weight is true through out the nylon and if you prefer to make it a bit heavier for striking etc you can just replace the caps on it with something else.

    I have one end of the caps drilled so a bit of string can go through there and lock onto the wrist, only because first time using them they few out of my hand and i didnt like the idea of something that hard flying through the class ;)
     
  14. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    A common question often posed by new and experienced Filipino Martial Artists alike:

    What is palasan or basiko or labsika or kamagong or bahi or Molave sticks?

    So before I commence on the usage of each stick, I will just give a brief laymans term on each of the words I just used:

    Palasan: Is a type of rattan.

    Basiko: Is a type of rattan.

    Labsika: Is a type of rattan.

    Kamagong: Is a fruit tree found only in the Philippines, the wood of which is extremely dense and hard, and famous for its dark color. And like many other very hard woods is sometimes called 'Ironwood'.

    Bahi: Is the wood from a Coconut tree trunk or the Anahaw palm.

    Molave: Is a type of hardwood found in the Philippines.

    So here is some information to assist you when it comes to the difficult decision of picking the right stick for you.


    To find a stick that lasts can often be down to the individual stick rather than the type of stick. As a rule the palasans I stock are stronger because they still have their skins and often have more nodes, whereas the basikos are semi skinned and often have less nodes which can make them weaker. But it is not always the case. If you get a good dense feeling basiko of any thickness it can outlast every stick in your bag.

    I prefer the basikos myself because they are varied and you can find a stick for all purposes, light for more contact, dense to last longer, thick, thin or heavy. There is a stick for every occasion and person. I have 2 sticks purely for solo, 2 purely for double stick drills, 1 for espada 'y' daga (Stick & Dagger) and another for constant striking of training partner and another for 2 man pair drills. Due to them all having a specific purpose, they last so much longer and as they wear out I then use them for sparring. For an extended life you can tape them up if you like and turn them round and use the taped end as a handle/gripping aid, so you still get the nice wood against wood sound during your training.

    If they are to be used for a lot of 2 man drills You need a good dense feeling stick, but other than that it is down to preference. I would say go for the palasan if it is a tough stick you are after, but this is in no way a guarantee that it will last any longer than another type of stick. The engraved palasans I do, have their skins on and carvings in the handle, but if you are drilling alot the carvings can iritate your hands. But they are nice and their slight flexibility does give the stick some extended life, I use one for Espada 'y' daga training because it is a more linear striking motion and does not cause too much movement of my hand, so there is no risk of my hand moving into the carving area and I love the design, but saying that once it has smoothed out it is not really that bad and can often act as a gripping aid, just make sure you check it and give it a sand down to remove any splinters that may have occurred from training.

    If you want a heavy unbreakable stick, go for a bahi stick. They have the grain running through like a conventional rattan stick but they are often made from the trunk of coconut trees which are quite tough, but if you want a very very strong Bahi stick, ours are hand crafted from the Anahaw palm which is even more dense and rarer than the more common coconut wood. I have even hit mine on the corner of my house and it left no marks on the stick other than a ruffle in the lacquer, which wiped away with a cloth. They are approx 500g in weight, brilliant for solo and tyre work, may cause some vibration in 2 man drills, but absorbs far more than kamagong which is a hard wood and does vibrate on impact.

    Kamagong is a rare hardwood with many shades of colour often found with a marble like pattern effect, but the favourite among FMA practitioners is the dark almost black finish but be aware that some suppliers add coloured dyes to different types of wood to give this dark effect or replace with a cheaper construction and furniture industry lumber known as Magkono wood and claim they are as good as Kamagong wood if not better when in fact they are just a cheap substitute for the traditional hardwood of the FMA, however sometimes the only way to know is if you have felt a real Kamagong stick before, it is a unique feel and when you pick it up you realise why they often call Kamagong 'Ironwood'.

    However, because of Kamagong being a solid wood they can rarely break on impact especially if there are any knots inside the stick, which is sometimes hard to tell without external signs of a knot. This can make them very weak against another solid object, but still very effective on flesh and bone, because of it's shear density, making it a favourite for death matches. But saying that in 7 years of supplying them I think I have only been advised of 2 breakages and it was due to heavy constant stick on stick contact both times, which although I still advise only to use them for solo training because of the possibility of breakage, the main reason I say it is because the hardwood causes a lot of vibration making it a less enjoyable training experience, these are an ideal training tool to build arm strength, flexibility and body movement.

    Molave wood is again a hardwood, but it has a softer density, making it slightly lighter than the Bahi and Kamagong sticks and prone to denting on the surface. Much cheaper to purchase and I have noticed once it has a considerable amount of impact, it tends to become more solid as if it has in fact compacted from the repeated dents it has received.

    Close Node sticks are also rare, they are the result of aged rattan that has been left growing for longer allowing them to become alot thicker in diameter. Many enthusiasts buy these sticks to have a nice big club in their bag, but they are not very practical for training with a partner and are prone to cracking due to the age and I suspect from the cold atmosphere we have here in the UK. Another great stick for solo, but be aware that some are very very thick. Usually the closer the nodes are together the stronger the stick will be.

    A good alternative to the close node is the labsika stick that we have recently started supplying and have proved to be very popular. They have the same appearance as the close node with the exagerated visibility of the nodes, but are lighter making them more practical for training with a partner. Usually these have 5 - 8 nodes making them a tougher stick than the basiko or palasan that has 2 - 4 nodes on average.

    I prefer the stripped/skinned corto basiko stick for abecedario drills (2 man basic partner drills, often involving multitudes of counter strikes on your training partners body) because it is very light, making it very easy to control whilst allowing yourself to go full speed on a partner with contact. If you do knock a bone or two it does not cause too much pain for your training partner and very little bruising occurs. But be aware that the stick will not last long with stick on stick contact as it's protective hard layer of skin has been removed.

    These light sticks are favoured in the tournaments for safety and equality, but they really do not last more than 10 minutes at full power, if you want a light stick to last a little longer than the skinned stick go with a semi skinned basiko stick and do not forget you can tape it up (electrical tape is most commonly used) and turn it round to get more use out of it. Do not throw it away until it is bending in half. The only downfall with this, is it loses it's crisp contact sound on impact which I like to hear as taping causes a dull thud which can often make you feel like you are hitting your opponent less, but for the purpose of only training it is o.k, just make sure in a tournament you use a fresh bare stick to ensure the judges hear every strike.

    Any stick can be used for tyre work, depending on how much of a workout you want. I tend to use a standard basiko or palasan stick to start a warm up making sure it is of an average weight to suit my ability/style. Once I have warmed up I will use a bahi stick because of it's ability to maintain itself and stay in shape no matter how much you use it. After a good session with a bahi stick, I go back to a standard weight stick and I can guarantee you will be flying with the lighter weight stick, just do not go using your favourite stick as it will be covered in black rubber within the first few strikes and completely black by the time you have finished even after one session and it will fray, splinter and break within a couple of long sessions. I personally buy cheap seconds (sticks with pit holes and scarring etc) knowing they will be destroyed in no time, so really does not matter how good a stick it was in the first place.

    There are some relatively tough rattan sticks available which I have started supplying, the problem with these tougher and denser rattans are they are quite expensive for the sole purpose of using as a stick for the purpose of FMA and people do not like to pay up to £10.00 for a stick for this purpose, even if they know the lifespan could be longer (these sticks also smell of smoke, like they are going to catch fire during two man drills and I have even seen sparks when I have been using them) and they destroy other peoples sticks and armour and often blister hands quickly. But I have started selling them due to requests to do so.

    I have a set of nylon fibre sticks which I never use personally as they are slippery and offer a dull sound when training, whereas I like the clicking sound of sticks (my preference) and they do have quite a bit of vibration which could lead to tennis elbow later on, but they will last a long long time if that is what you want. I also have iron bars but my training partners do not like them, haha!

    You can get the nylon fibre sticks from bearing suppliers as they are in fact bearings for large industrial machinary.

    At the end of the day it is down to preference, the right stick is a personal thing, if it is too thick or too thin you can over compensate your grip and quickly suffer with cramps, but knowing exactly what you are going to use it for (type of exercises) will help you to get the right stick and offer a possibility of prolonging it's life too.

    Love Lucy
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2009
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    That should be added as an Article Lucy. Good stuff.
     
  16. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    28" long, 1" thick with screw in end caps (picture would be nice)? Whats the weight like on them?
     
  17. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    I'll get the total weight and break it down but its next to nothing a bit heavier than ratten sticks you will hardly notice the difference I've uploaded 3 photos for you to see of the cap undone (rope end, optional) I don't think I have enough for your sizes but ill get a cost and PM you the total later this week.

    You will just get charged for the materials no labour fee :)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    *laugh*

    If only that translated into actual combat. :D
     
  19. progdan

    progdan Valued Member

    Yes, that was excellent, lots of interesting info! Thanks for posting! :)
     
  20. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Like the look of them, do you have a price yet?
     

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