Steve Morris says all forms of Karate are useless

Discussion in 'Karate' started by ronki23, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    They are great for many things, the primary purpose, is to learn the basics of controlling your own body. This is done by adhering to basic principles.

    1) Relaxing
    2) Breathing
    3) Grounding
    4) Alignment
    5) Coordinated Body Motion

    These are the five basic basics, in our system. Kata is practiced 5x focusing on each of these individually.

    After this, then we focus on what we call, the four powers.

    1) Grounding
    2) Rotating
    3) Thrusting
    4) And again Coordinated Body Motion

    Keeping in line with the 7 corrections..

    1) Align the feet with the body
    2) Shift the weight forward or back
    3) Rotate the hips in or out of the action
    4) Do not lean forward or backwards
    5) Relax the shoulders
    6) Turn the shoulders into or out of the action.
    7) Straighten or tighten the elbow.

    Using kata in alignment with these principles can teach you a lot.

    What I have stated here, is to get the student to understand how their own body works. And, is the very basic level in learning Kata. The next is to learn techniques and there various uses.

    This is done by the practice of applications in its basic simplicity. To think that these basic movements can be performed, in a real scenario, exactly the way you see them done in Kata...is a beginner's mentality and shows a lack of knowledge concerning the benefits of Kata.

    I do find comments such as these humorous, as every style or system uses forms in some way. If you are practicing a series of movements, without a partner regardless of what system you are training in...you are doing Kata.
     
    Grond likes this.
  2. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Neat, I had forgotten about this thread. Thanks. Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying about "beginner's mentality". As someone who did Karate as a kid, and later on preferred boxing to point sparring, I could still see the value of the forms and how rigorously they were taught (At least in the Funakoshi tradition, which in my experience was pretty harsh). Somewhere here in this thread, maybe a year or two ago, I mentioned that part of the value I saw in forms was learning your own weaknesses BEFORE trying to attack someone else's. Boxing has its own kind of kata. I am not ashamed to admit I find myself doing speed bag sequences all the time, in elevators, at work. The form of speed bagwork isn't that much different from repeating the same Shotokan kata over and over and over. The point is kind of simple: get moving.

    Forms get associated with dance a lot, and in a pejorative sense to some, but dancing takes great strength, skill, practice, and courage when done in front of others. So why should a Shotokan form be any less valuable than, say, the Tango or Marimba. These are tools designed to break up our sloth, apathy, fatigue, and so forth, and get our minds focused on precision, accuracy, and endurance. Forms, done well, are inspirational.

    I'm not a big Bruce Lee nut or anything, but what he said in Enter the Dragon was totally true. "Emotional content".

     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
    Guthrie likes this.
  3. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    While I can see the value in kata and forms, I’m unconvinced about the level of emphasis that many styles give to them. Is it proportionate to their benefit?

    Traditional arts often give a huge amount of emphasis to forms. In an hourlong lesson, it matters you spend your time.
     
  4. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    This is the heart of the matter to me , if all that time is spent just getting the shapes right , then , for me , it’s suboptimal (unless you’re specifically preparing for a competition).
    If , however , you spend that time exploring the bunkai using the kata as a starting point to more alive drills and maybe finishing class with the traditional kata again as a warm down then they’re fine.
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If you get benefit from doing forms, that's great. But those benefits are not inherent in them, they have to be brought to them, and you don't need to practise forms to get those benefits.

    Also, practice without a partner does not necessarily equal doing a set form. I mean, you could say that, but it doesn't make it true regarding how most people would define a form - which is a set sequence of motions used as a teaching aid or performance.
     
    Grond likes this.
  6. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    [QUOTE="Guthrie, post: 1075062065, member: 92002". If you are practicing a series of movements, without a partner regardless of what system you are training in...you are doing Kata.[/QUOTE]
    No you really are not.
     
  7. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    They are great for many things, the primary purpose, is to learn the basics of controlling your own body. This is done by adhering to basic principles.

    1) Relaxing
    2) Breathing
    3) Grounding
    4) Alignment
    5) Coordinated Body Motion

    These are the five basic basics, in our system. Kata is practiced 5x focusing on each of these individually.

    After this, then we focus on what we call, the four powers.

    1) Grounding
    2) Rotating
    3) Thrusting
    4) And again Coordinated Body Motion

    Keeping in line with the 7 corrections..

    1) Align the feet with the body
    2) Shift the weight forward or back
    3) Rotate the hips in or out of the body
    4) Do not lean forward or backwards
    5) Relax the shoulders
    6) Turn the shoulders into or out of the action.
    7) Straighten or tighten the elbow.

    Using kata in alignment with these principles can teach you a lot.

    What I have stated here, is to get the student to understand how their own body works. And, is the very basic level in learning Kata. The next is to learn techniques and there various uses.

    This is done by the practice of applications in its basic simplicity. To think that these basic movements can be performed exactly the way you see them done in Kata...is a beginner's mentality and shows a lack of knowledge concerning the benefits of Kata.

    I do find comments such as these humorous, as every style or system uses forms in some way. If you are practicing a series of movements, without a partner regardless of what system you are training in...you are doing Kata.
    No you really are not.[/QUOTE]
    Yes you really are
     
  8. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    You could get some of those.. if you know about them. But, most who down play these forms and these basic principles...really just have no true experience.

    Sequence of independent movements are forms. That is the very definition of forms.
     
  9. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    Forms are simply a sequence of techniques...really that is all they are. Now, depending on the system...they can vary widely. But they are still a sequence of movement used to practice solo. Every fighting system does this. Even when you are creating your own sequence. You are doing a form. IMO

    To say a sequence of motions are useless, is simply stating that every system is useless.

    As for the basic principles, you can definitely see the lack of using these basic principles in most combat competition arts.

    Just a few quick vids of the UFC shows the lack of proper form and even the lack of these principles in their attacks and defenses...rudemently at best. It is more of a slug fest if anything.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Not many people are going to buy into the idea that shadow boxing is kata. It's been attempted a few times here.

    These concepts are not in the forms. You can see enough people doing bad form work to know that. So whether you do forms or not, basic principles are held by the teacher, and they apply them to whatever training they are giving.

    You can do that with forms, or you can do that without. The efficiency of training methods is debatable (to a point), but at the end of the day if you enjoy doing forms then do them, if you don't... don't. Forgoing form work is not a barrier to progress (and many would argue the opposite).

    Do you include the UFC fighters who are black belts in traditional martial arts and do a lot of form work in that assessment?
     
  11. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    ka·ta
    /ˈkädə/
    noun
    1. a system of individual training exercises for practitioners of karate and other martial arts.
      • an individual training exercise in karate and other martial arts.
    Unless boxing (your example) is not classified as a martial art, their opinion is irrelevant to the actual definition. We do not get the luxury if forming our own definitions.
    Yes, but we are speaking from a Karate perspective and TMA...Kata is the method that is used for Karate and usually, this is the system that is being spoken of.

    Do you include the UFC fighters who are black belts in traditional martial arts and do a lot of form work in that assessment?

    I do yes, to the extent that they are focusing on competition. I think it actually hurts their technique and delivery. IMO
     
  12. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    My apologies still trying to get this quoting thing down.
     
  13. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I got a little ways into your long post from today before I realized it was the same long post from yesterday. Weird, how did you repost the same thing on two different days? Is that a copy and paste from somewhere else?
     
  14. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    Not really sure, I am on a cell phone and everything keeps jumping around when I try to quote someone. But no..not copy and paste.

    I will get'r figured out.
     
  15. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    I’ve never found shadow boxing to be much like doing forms.

    More to the point, I found that boxing spends the amount of time on shadow boxing that’s proportionate to its benefit.
     
    David Harrison likes this.
  16. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Shadow boxing is free form within its set parameters, you are not told which punch to throw in sequence, how precisely to step,

    You are not pulled up if you don't perform a sequence passed down from your coaches coach precisely how it was taught to him.

    In shadow boxing two fighters stood next to each other could be throwing totally different combinations, using different foot work patterns based on their fighting styles.

    How any one can equate that to a fixed form.practise is strange to me

    Note I'm not saying one is better than the other, each to their own but I am saying it's not the same thing.
     
    Monkey_Magic and David Harrison like this.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    So Karate in a fight shouldn't look like kata, and it shouldn't look like high level Karateka fighting in combat sports. I'm curious what karate should look like in a fight.

    And anytime you are doing something in a MA class without a partner it is kata? How does paired kata fit into that?
     
  18. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    Again, this is a lack of understanding the use of kata..

    For Karate, Kata is a string of applications, not strikes, these are two separate things.

    True, the applications have strikes in them, but they are used to show takedowns, breaks and hard damage to the body, joint manipulation etc..

    As for being monkey see monkey do, that is a product of competition. Early Karate instructors, focused on the development of Karate individually, when it came to students..hence the reason for so many different variations of Karate in this day and age.

    In Karate (at least the system I train in) we have shadow boxing, albeit we call it solo freestyle and if you put two of the same students side by side, they will look different. Even in doing the applications...but it is the structure that is important...the basic basics.

    For the comment about boxing doesn't teach this way, I would disagree...how did you learn to shadow box, without the coach showing you the combo's in a step by step fashion?

    Do they not correct you on proper stance, delivery of strikes etc..before they allow you to shadow box...really how do you even learn proper techniques without. The coach correcting you.....in what they see as the right way.

    A jab, a cross, an uppercut etc..taught in sequence to beginner's at first, is a kata under its definition.

    What I see is people watching sport Karate and then thinking that it is actual Karate, it's not, not at all IMO.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Looking forward to seeing you getting into the UFC and showing those schlubs how it's really done!
     
  20. Guthrie

    Guthrie Member

    That's just silly, they have rulesets and I stay away from such games. I want my art to work while saving my life, from those who wish to attack me and my household, not for glory.
     

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