Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

Discussion in 'Karate' started by kokuToraRyu, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. puma

    puma Valued Member

    How does your instructor teach the ladies then? They shouldn't constantly be taking full-blown shots to the body surely?
     
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    I train in a very small dojo. All adults, no kids. We had one female for a while but she ended up graduating from college. My instructor's view (and one I agree with) is to treat them no differently. They train and spar just like the men (though naturally contact levels are adjusted to their ability, but the same can be said for males too so it's really no different).

    Women sparring under Kyokushin rules:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVunzCXZ058"]YouTube - Kyokushin Women's Light Weight Final World Cup Japan[/ame]

    Obviously if there's any chance they might be pregnant they should not spar this way, but otherwise, why not? Women can be strong karateka just as much as men can be.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Our women use breast guards when sparring Shidokan rules but other than that it's much the same as the men.
     
  4. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I've briefly worked at a workshop with a nidan in Enshin karate. She punched pretty darned hard when every Shotokan karateka in the room was tapping; I assume she expects the same in return.

    I wouldn't hit her in the breasts, but I see no reason why non-pregnant women shouldn't be taking shots to the stomach, ribs, and legs like men do.
     
  5. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Women shouldn't constantly be hit in the body in my opinion. It's not healthy.
     
  6. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Why is it any less healthy for women than for men? Do you have any sort of medical or scientific study that states as much?

    Are you worried about the uterus and ovaries getting damaged? Fighters aren't dropping dead from liver failure left and right, and the uterus and ovaries are more deeply buried (and more protected) than the liver is. Frankly, if the uterus and the ovaries were being damaged, you think that there would be some telltale internal pain (just like when your liver or kidneys are injured, or when a man's testicles are bruised), but I've never heard of a female fighter talking about such a thing.
     
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Women shouldn't constantly be hit in the body in my opinion. It's not healthy.

    NO ONE should be constantly hit in the body. It's not healthy.
     
  8. Kobudo-man

    Kobudo-man Valued Member

    Hey all, didn't have a chance to read through some of the more recent posts, these just stood out to me.


    That's a good point. I only do point-sparring for tournaments, other we practice continuous (though controlled) sparring and self-defense.

    Where's your source? Give me numbers I'll ask for a source.
    Most people I've heard attend it for a sport, and I've answered this before,
    Here's the original topic:
    http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89460
    You're kidding, right? Bunkai doesn't stand up to self defense. If you're practicing bunkai, then you know everything the attackers going to do. Try practicing something unexpected.

    Also:If we're going on the theory of muscle memory, you're training them to continue through their kata which can get them beat up, just like the guy who stripped the gun and handed it back to the criminal

    And if you practice bunkai techniques out of order of the kata they ARE self-defense techniques and your argument becomes semantics.

    QFT

    I hate the sexist "softer women's sports" theory, and I know several women that would give you two black eyes, take you to the ground, and put you in a choke-out for it. No, really, you don't want to make them mad when they get in the ring
     
  9. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    And that's probably why you've never had a problem. Take a school whose main emphasis is the tournament though, or a fighter who that is all he does, and you can see where the problems might begin.
     
  10. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    As far as women and fighting, some women can be tougher fighters than men. The whole "never hit a woman" and "woman need to be protected" concepts, though chivalrous, need to be overcome if you're a martial artist. As an LEO, I'd have to fight women before, some just as vicious as men. When two of our female officers got into a fight with a female they were trying to arrest, the majority of the male officers that were there just sat back and didn't instantly react despite the fact this actor was really fighting our officers. I grabbed her, applied a standing arm bar, and introduced her to Mr. Pavement. We had one cuff on her and were working on the second when then they got their wits about them again and helped us. "He who hesitates is lost." Get over that inhibition if you're honestly training for self-protection.
     
  11. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    ON GENDER DIFFERENCE - statistics from the US navy or army (i cant remember which one)

    1.On average men have 50% more upper body strength and 30% more strength in lower extremities, due to more muscle in about the same proporations.

    2.On average men are taller, difference in size affects the amount of physical work that you can produce.

    3.On average women the same size as their male counterparts only have 80% of the body strength.

    4.Women carry more body fat than men, do around (10%) around the hips which lowers centre of gravity which means must overcome more resistance in activicties that require movement of the lower body.

    5.Women have less bone mass than men their pelvic structure is wider this gives men the advantage in running.

    6. On average a womens heart is 25% smaller, and men have (25% to 30%) greater lung capacity, this means the woman would fatigue quicker.

    7. flexibility - women are generally more flexible than men.


    I can't comment on the chemical composition of our bodies but that to has a big role to play as well.

    I dont think women can be treated like men when it comes to sparring, that is if a woman is paired with a man because we are different no matter what anyone says in the overall scheme of things the bottom line is we are different.

    Now i'm not saying women shouldn't spar with men ofcourse they should, but i certainely wouldn't want to be the one that knocks out a women in dojo sparring.

    You dont see women entering the UFC to do battle against men, the way i see it is women have their competiton and we have ours, just like in mens competitions the middleweights fight other middleweights etc. and not heavyweights.

    On standard kumite, i think its a great tool that can be used very effectively to advance to the free style sparring arena, actually one of the best.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
  12. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    None of these statistics, though, support the theory that women are more easily injured in sparring than men are. These statistics don't support the argument that women shouldn't do full-contact. These statistics only support the argument for separate gender classes in competition because on average women might be able to dish out less punishment (same reason there are weight classes in most full-contact styles). Nothing here suggests that it is bad for women's health to spar full-contact.
     
  13. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    That's flawed logic right there. The UFC's lightest weight class is 155lbs; the heaviest weight class I've seen for women is 145lbs, and there are only four or five notable fighters there. Most are well below that; arguably the best female fighter in the world fights at 114lbs (52 kilograms), well below the lightest, and least-populous, male weight class of Flyweight (125lbs).

    Women compete with, and defeat, men in grappling matches. There, fighters are matched up by weight. It should be the same for striking contests, but virtually every culture still clings to the prehistoric taboo that women shouldn't fight men.

    Women can take some punishment:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW71EgoFnQE&feature=related"]YouTube - Amanda Buchanan vs Naoko Kumagai[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24boxKJy7x0"]YouTube - Półtorak vs Simovic +70kg women Full-Contact final[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVunzCXZ058"]YouTube - Kyokushin Women's Light Weight Final World Cup Japan[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXEuGKl2LQQ"]YouTube - Gina Carona vs Julie Kedzie[/ame]

    All those stats you had for the "average" woman might be neither here nor there for this discussion. The average woman doesn't train martial arts. Let's get stats for women compared to men in martial arts.

    And just for poops and chuckles, women beating men in grappling:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRPD7bOoSpc"]YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jue7_27D9_8"]YouTube - Man v Woman tournament grappling match (nice flying arm bar)[/ame]
     
  14. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    I never said women shouldn't fight full contact, i said women shouldn't fight men, they can spar with men.

    I guess i'm abit old fashioned when it comes to women fighting men, if you think my logic is flawed then thats cool, each to his own, i'm only expressing my opinion, maybe generation Y finds nothing wrong with it but it just doesn't sit right with me.
     
  15. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    theoretically, all this jibber-jabber about women being weaker than men and not being able to fight them competitively is, although partly due to testosterone levels and muscle development, also partly because most girls are raised, for lack of a better term, in a girly manner, where boys are raised with such old gems as "men don't cry", "man up", etc, and encouraged to do energetic stuff that's conductive to good physical development. i mean, when was the last time you saw an elementary school kid's soccer practice with an all-girl team?
     
  16. jbbasince84

    jbbasince84 Valued Member

    The Ladies in our school are of Dan ranking and very fierce fighters in addition to being very strong when it comes to contact.
    We feel that whether male or female we are all practitioners therefore, if we take it easy on them they aren't getting the full benefit of training.

    To clarify my post from last night, when I stated that we strike quite hard to the body area, I was in know way implying that we fight full contact. We do however strongly believe that if we go through our journey without experiencing what it feels like to hit or get hit, that real confrontation will be a shock to the system as the attacker will have no intention of holding back.

    A former co-worker of mine who happens to be a practitioner in another style stated that even at her achieved level (3rd dan) she has NEVER made contact with anyone while fighting.
    I'm not ever one to critisize another style or practitioner but it's a scary thought that she has never experienced contact.
    She has recently joined our academy and the kumite has been not only an eye opener for her but she questions the validity of her past training:)
     
  17. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Logic has nothing to do with opinion. Not to dwell on the point too much, but using the UFC in the argument against women vs. men is unsound. Even if the UFC got approval to have a mixed match, it would be a moot point because there are no world-class female MMA fighters at 155lbs, which is the smallest/lightest weight class in the UFC. It's like saying that talking otters are poor at manning switchboards; we don't know, because talking otters don't exist. Neither does a world-class female MMA fighter exist at 155lbs. The logic is flawed because there are no notable female fighters in the weight classes supported by the UFC.

    "Fighting" in this context is just sparring for a prize. I don't see why one would be OK and the other wouldn't. Care to clarify your views?
     
  18. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Wome should spar men, as speaking strictly from a self-protection standpoint, what will happen if a woman who never fights a man gets attacked by a man?
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    How did we get from "women shouldn't fight full contact because it's bad for their health" to "women wouldn't be competitive with a weight class with men"? Those are two entirely different questions.

    Not the best example because soccer is more popular with girls than boys in the United States. But I know what you were getting at.
     
  20. magpie

    magpie Valued Member

    In JKA shobu ippon there are no weight divisions, so you may get a 60kg man against a 120kg man, so even in prized compettion the odds are stacked against the women.

    No matter how hard your sparring might be it can never simulate real fighting, whether its muay thai or kyokushin.

    I do agree with one thing and that is at an advanced level you should be experiencing contact in your sparring.

    Then again i know for a fact that not even mma athletes spar with 100% contact week in week out, if this was the case they would wreck there bodies very quickly in their carrier.

    Also heavy consistant full contact is not good for the bodies internal organs, there has to be a a balance, unless you want to enter old age in a geriatric's home.
     

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