A thought just occurred to me, could it be that this is the "net predator falsity issue"? to explain: A few years ago, there was an enormous uproar and fear of myspace, chatrooms, and pretty much anywhere on the internet that involved personal info. This was due to the highly feared "net predators". The media ran with the subject of net predators, and implanted a fear into most parents and public officials, through exaggeration and a touch of yellow journalism, that if you were registered to myspace, you were probably going to get targeted by a net predator. In reality, the chances of getting targeted by one of these people was something like 1 in 75000. (I don't have any official numbers at the moment but they were quite low. I'll post them later if I find them) It wasn't the actual chances of getting targeted that scared people, it was the excessive telling and retelling and the alarming level at which the media reported it. Is it possible that the same case exists with the point-sparrers? I mean, it gets told at such a high level, but how many people actually do it compared to the total population of fighters? I say this because I know from experience that when I'm in a situation where I really need this stuff, I don't pull the punch or stop at the point. And though I can't vouch for them, I haven't heard of my friends doing anything of the type either, and I trust them.
And that's what makes it good training. You're exhausted, battered, beaten, and bruised and still have to face several fresh opponents. You could quit at any time, yet you keep going until the end. IMO this builds great spirit for self-defense: NEVER QUIT! I had to do a 15-man for my last belt exam and it was no picnic, that's for sure. My legs were beaten to a pulp, at the time I thought my ribs were cracked on the right side, and I was dead tired. The feeling of completing it and doing well (usually they want you to win at least 50% of the fights) is indescribable. My instructor did a 25 man at age 50 and rocked it, won almost 75% of his fights. Great training, shugyo at its finest.
Wouldn't that make horrible practice for self defense? On the street you don't want to keep fighting, you want to get out of there as soon as you have an opening. By your own argument that training can breed bad instinct, wouldn't the instinct driven into you to stay and fight be horrible in terms of self-defense?
What is the sparring emphasis at your school? I ask this because in many ways it can show the priorities of the school. If you're training in a karate dojo that is first and foremost about the art and self-defense yet occasionally do point sparring to "test yourself", you'll probably be less likely to adopt the bad habits of say a school that's focused on winning point tournaments and spars a few times a week like that.
I think the idea is that it breeds fighting spirit - you will fight back even if you are exhausted, injured, etc. Rather than teaching one to stay and fight when one has the chance to run, I think the point is to teach you to keep going when the chips are down. Just some thoughts, dunno if they're correct or not.
Exactly right. Building people up to achieve things they didn't think they could. Turning a beginner into a fighter to be reckoned with by incremental steps. On the street I'd put my money on the guy with fighting spirit (aggression, resilience) over the guy with technique any day. Of course putting the two together is the ideal. During my last 10 man the last few rounds were basically me staying upright, keeping my guard up, trying not to take a step back and just keeping on punching. More than once I ended up on the deck and more than once my seniors could have kept me there. Many martial arts use the old adage "fall down 6 times get up 7". During knockdown you actually have to do that. If you can't see the relevence in that to real fighting and self defence then I don't know what to say really.
kokuToraRyu, Ive experienced what you are saying. My conclusion, Horses for courses- theres a martial art out there for everyone but much more importantly than that.. My particular shotokan club RARELY indulges in Bunkai, which is the real ingredient to combat- Its the mindset during Bunkai that is important, not particularly the techniques. So some people at my club took sparring a little far due to this lacking of bunkai, and i was in the same position. May i ask do you practise Bunkai at your club? (really wish i had something on Taira Sensei of Okinawa Go-Ju Ryu, Bunkai specialist. He shows its merits so well.) Edit: Passmith raises important points of perserverence within the current sparring regulations also.
My perspective is based primarily on personal experience. In my youth I trained in bog standard (but good quality for the time) karate-do. When push actually came to shove my training failed me - I pulled my punches. I had conditioned myself to pull my blows and to do otherwise required conscious effort. My TKD instructor (WTF) took it a step further. Despite being used to fighting in body armour and a string of competitions successes, when he needed his skills for self-defence he just froze and the let the aggressor hit him. Both of us had been failed - one way or another - by our training. Since those days I've modified my training regime significantly. Now it requires conscious effort to pull my punches rather than to put them in. This is all a personal perspective, but I do see my own experiences reflected in others. Quite typically when I have new students with previous karate experience they are initially unable to distance their blows correctly - they routinely fall short. There have been exceptions (ouch!) but they are just that, exceptions. Mike
All, I am in awe of all you comments and input into this topic, I agree that each type of Kumite does have its purpose in each individual's training/journey through the way. To me the levels of Kumite should be treated as the are just levels of training Non-contact for the Lower Mudansha, to Semi-Contact for the Higher Mudansha to Lower Yudansha to Full Contact/Knockdown for the Middle to Senior Yudansha with the "one strike = stop" rule completely removed from ALL types of kumite. If we look at 99% of most people's reason for first joining a Karate School............To learn self defence, amongst other things, so are we not failing them as Instructors is we do not prepare them for the "event" if it ever happens? This is why we get people saying Karate doesn't work, because of the Tippy tappy bouncy bouncy one hit one point sparring that we do in some styles. to me the 100-, 200- and 300-man Kumites that are done in Kyokushin and Ashihara and Enshin are as already state as an achievement of oneself not to prove how "Hard" one is. I have already taken part in a 20-man Kumite (20 x 5 mins of continual fighting no water breaks) and to finish it was an awesome feeling, We all congratulated each other and had a beer after. I hope to compete in a 30 man in the next few years Self-defence Techniques are Rubbish too as if we all practiced the bunkai of the kata we practice we wouldn't need them. I teach bunkai in my school and I have had Jujitsu practitioner asked where is it I got the Jujitsu techniques from. I said "Real Karate" is always like this.
With the 10,20,100,etc, man kumite, I completely understand the spirit and fitness element. From what you have said though, after so many fights you aren't really fighting any more. It is just a case of keep going. The last few fights you are just getting battered. This is my point. I have seen some people advertise the fact they have done 100-man fights and stuff, but try to make people believe they win every fight, which just simply can't be true. I also saw a documentry about 2 years ago, and the fighter had to do 100 fights without losing. He was allowed so many draws I believe, but couldn't lose. Hey, imagine if he won 99, and your the last person and you beat him. Would you feel bad? Anyway, I respect the fitness, the spirit, the toughness of it, it is just no one can actually fight all the way, which is what some claim, that is all. It is not that I don't respect Kyokoshin fighters or anything like that. I remember seeing an old clip of Tyson where he was training with Kevin Rooney. He was working around Rooney, throwing all sorts of different shots. He threw them fast and hard, but he pulled the blows. He didn't have any gloves on, just working certain things. Just another input into the 'pulling techniques' discussion. I personally feel if you have complete control over your techniques you can do what you like with them, whether you decide to pull or hit. Just as long as you don't train to pull all the time. Sometimes pulling is good to work your distance. Sounds silly, but to touch the target you have to be very precise, especially with kicks.
the "one strike = stop" rule completely removed from ALL types of kumite. I was sparring at Thai boxing a few months back. At one point I faked a jab and executed a mid section reverse punch. Caught my partner square on as he came in, I was well planted and had good focus. He staggered back, hit the ropes, crumpled and had to stop. One hit one "kill".
And that's exactly why it's such a hard achievement and a task worthy of respect. They won't let you stop fighting, and if you have 12 more guys to go, you're going to have to keep fighting. You're required to win at least half the matches. If all you do is cover up and let yourself get beat on for a round, you lost that one. To succeed you have to keep fighting despite how tired/hurt/broken you might be. You will see the exact same situation in a self-defense situation. Let's say you get jumped by a guy and manage to put him down with a few well-placed blows. Next thing you know two of his friends are chasing you. You manage to run from them for about 5-6 minutes then the next thing you know you're cornered and they're on you. You've probably already experienced the adrenaline dump of the first fight and now just ran at a sprint for several minutes. You're going to be tired. And now you have two fresh opponents who are a bit irritated at the fact that you just gave their friend some costly dental bills. Do you think you can still keep fighting them? Or do you want to KNOW that you can keep fighting? Kevin Rooney was his trainer. Tyson sparred constantly in training camp. It just sounds like a variation of shadowboxing and shouldn't be considered actual sparring.
Instructors pull blows when demonstrating techniques in class too. Doesn't mean they're teaching their students to do it all the time. This is the point I was trying to make. Demonstration is different from practice. EDIT: I'm assuming this is the video you meant? Mike Tyson Training, Career Highlights - Video If so, it's being filmed because he's putting on a show for everyone there. It's essentially shadowboxing, nothing more.
Sorry, I don't understand the link between instructors demonstrating and Tyson training. I've missed your point. As you said, demonstartion is different from practice,and he was practicing. And I never said he was sparring. I just said he was pulling his blows. No, that wasn't the video. It was just him and Rooney. Nice video though. Loved his defence up close in that fight they showed. Awesome.
He was "practicing" for all the news media there, yes. In many ways these are for publicity and for show (hence the demonstration part mentioned before). Most of the time these are not their real training regimens. Let's try another approach then. Out of all of Tyson's training, how much do you think made that much of his training? Tyson was training in a combat sport where the idea was to hit people and hit them often. Hence he did quite a lot of sparring in training. If Tyson did in fact do "no-contact sparring" (which his trainer isn't even striking back at him so what's the point), I seriously doubt he can claim even a small part of his ability to it considering how minor of an emphasis he would have given it.
Someone that can hit damn hard pulling his shots is totally different from someone that has only ever learn to pull their shots trying to hit hard. It's not pulling shots per se that is bad (we all do it if we are honest...no one spars swinging for the fences every time and with every shot) but the training that has happened surronding that pulled shot. As I mentioned a shot from Tyson (who honed his power on bags and pads) that is pulled is very different from a shot from a karate student that has only ever punched air or pulled them in sparring.
Notice when Iron Mike is practising that sequence with K.Rooney, His body rotates for each blow with arms allmost locked in position... The secret to a Powerfull hook . Well, perhaps not a secret but take note, his body weight hits you not just his arm/strength (i know most of you guys would know that, just putin it out there)
I totally agree with you my friend as Karate is traditionally known as the japanese hard style of martial arts. We kumite with some serious contact to the body area as my instructor so modestly puts it " better to be familiar with pain during training then when we are confronted on the street we are familiar with contact and can defend ourselves. We try to incorporate waza into our kumite as much as possible using elbow strikes reaps, and takedowns, as afterall that is why we learn the techniques the way we do. I've never been a fan of the point fighting aspect
