Standard Kumite - a waste of time!!!!!

Discussion in 'Karate' started by kokuToraRyu, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. kokuToraRyu

    kokuToraRyu Valued Member


    I personally think that the type of sparring, kumite and competitions that follow Standard WKF, WKA etc rules are a waste of time. The "types" of Competitions I have seen advertised in which I would be disqualified in within the opening seconds. Also the fact that no thigh kicks are allowed either. This is also the reason why Other Martial Artists consider Karate as a "Soft" art.

    In Boxing Bouts, it is continuous striking. Imagine a Boxing bout where once one fighter has hit the other the bout is stopped they are re-centralised for the bout to begin again. You’d think this was stupid and unrealistic. So why do we "allow" it in Karate.

    The One Strike = One Point Rule is useless, I've never seen this happen in a bar brawl or on a street where to "fighters" have hit once then the "fight" stopped and they restart again

    Non-Contact - again this is useless especially if its 1 strike = 1 point rules, usually it’s the bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of Kumite. How many times have you heard of someone breaking their wrist/foot the first time they've hit someone in a real fight. To me Non-Contact is the same as performing Kata. Board breaking - well I've never got into a fight with a piece of wood.

    Semi-Contact - This is getting there as long as its not bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of Kumite. I tend to use this type of Kumite for my Kids. Its more street realistic and gives Karateka an Idea of what a street confrontation would be like. Again I would compare this to Kata Bunkai classes

    Full Contact or "knockdown" - This type of tournament competition is closer to "real life" personal combat, although it still in a tournament setting with rules. There is definitely no bouncy bouncy tippy tappy guard on your hips type of fighter in this type of kumite. Also Full contact is allowed all over the body (except the joints, groin and face, in Kyokushin and Ashihara and Enshin etc, as these are such an easy targets to hit and as it is full contact concussion or fractures may occur). This style of kumite, often, they don't award any points for controlled techniques delivered to the opponent. In fact, they usually don't award points for full-force techniques delivered to the opponent either. Instead, points are only awarded for knocking, sweeping, or throwing your opponent to the floor. Kyokushinkai and its "offshoot" karate organizations are the styles usually known to promote knockdown tournament rules.

    I look forward to your responses

    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  2. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'm not the best person to comment but I've seen more devastating strikes in one hit karate kumite than i have in mma fighting. To me the semi contact and point stuff is a way to ease you into full contact. Get your technique right then focus on fighing type thing.

    Sorry dude but the only way you're going to get an authentic street fighting experiance is to bottle someone at a bar and see what happens
  3. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Some people like it. Room for everyone
  4. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Jiyu Ippon has methods behind the madness.

    The one hit-stop idea is developed from a central training tenet - to be able to deliver the one blow that will end the fight. If you don't defend well enough and as a result get hit that could well be it for you. It being 'realistic' is besides the point. You find me a karate-ka that is prepared to land only one blow and expect the fight to be over and I will show you a karate-ka who needs to train harder. Then find me a karate-ka who trains for the objective of stopping a fight with one blow. A subtle difference, perhaps, but it is central to (Shotokan) karate training. You get hit, you have failed. It's like in class - if you get hit it's your fault, not the fault of the attacker. How could it be their fault if that is what they are aiming to do?!

    Which leads nicely in to why it is debatable if jiyu ippon should be turned in to competition at all. My gut feeling would be that it would be more beneficial for karate competition to be more continuous and have a higher degree of contact. That being said, I wouldn't have a problem competing in jiyu ippon either.

    Technically speaking, kumite was never the main focus for self defence training in karate. It was used as a way to hone technique and reactions, developing counters and awareness. The defence and how-to-survive-a-brawl stuff came from kata and partner drills. Kumite, in alot of ways, is a very modern addition. And let's be honest, if it wasn't for the popularity of combat sports, we'd unlikey even be having a conversation about the effectiveness of kumite in a 'real' situation. In a real situation my instincts would be telling me either to run or drop the guy - not to worry about timing. Mawashi - empi - goodnight.

    EDIT: Oh, and maybe I'll play Devil's advocate here and suggest that Kyokushin was invented by a bloke with something to prove?! ;)
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  5. kokuToraRyu

    kokuToraRyu Valued Member

    So at present everyone thinks that boxing should follow the same route as Karate and have a Boxing bout where once one fighter has hit the other the bout is stopped they are re-centralised for the bout to begin again.

    And regards Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama was schooled in Shotokan, and one of his reasons for formulating Kyokushin was the fact that he believed that Karate Kumite was not Strong enough - hence why Kykushin is known as "The Strongest Karate" and that Kyokushin is the one that was illustrated in Human Weapon and Fight Quest. How many Shotokan etc Karateka have taken part in 100, 200 and 300 man Kumites.

    Great debate, thank you for your input
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  6. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Don't think anyone has even hinted at that. 'cept you
  7. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    No one's said that. IMO boxing and karate have completely different aims with their sparring albeit you aim to win in both. Boxing is outright a competition sport your aim is to lay out your opponent and win. I think point sparring in karate has a lot more to do with technique
  8. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Um... Who said that? *looks around*

    You can't compare boxing and karate. They are two separate beasts, with two completely different ideologies and training philosophies behind them. Not to mention one was made as a sport (however good it may be at other things) and one was developed as a means of self defence.

    It seems to me what you aim to do is to 'sportify' karate just as much as Them-in-the-WKF, but substituting pointy tappy shouty loudy with growls, screams, contact and blood.

    And let us remember a boxing match is nothing like a streetfight either.
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    you don't like wkf competition sparring? simple.

    don't go to wkf competitions.

    spar at your dojo, or even organize your own "house rules" competition.

    i don't like wtf tkd competition sparring, but i have no problem with them doing it. i don't like sport karate either, but i have no problem with sport karateka doing it.

    know why i don't care about it? because i do my own thing, and when in rome, i just do as the romans do, then go my own way
  10. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    <fleetwood mac>You can go your own waaaaaaaaaay, go - your - own - waaaaaaay</fleetwood mac>
  11. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    How many Shotokan karate-ka want to take part in 100, 200 and 300 man kumites? What does that prove? To be honest, I'm not planning on sticking around long enough to have to fight 300 people. And like I said before, kumite isn't necessarily the focal point of Shotokan training.

    Furthermore, 'The Strongest Karate' sounds like a title that firstly might be a little self-bestowed and secondly is one accepted by someone with.... you guessed it... something to prove. He ran around slaying bulls and kicking the crap out of everyone because he wanted to prove he was the best and he could. Great. That's awesome. Wait, didn't he also die of cancer? Oh yeah, he did. So all that tough guy training and he still kicked the bucket. Karate kumite might not have been strong enough for him or alot of people. But let's not forget that there were places then (like there are now) that trained very hard and where injuries were almost expected. It's not like he came up with something new.
  12. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    @ Llama:

    Attached Files:

  13. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Boxers wear big gloves! Points fighters don't!

    Go tell Wayne Otto or someone like that you think points fighting is poop and see how you get on is my only suggestion.

    As for 100 man kumite, I personally think that is a load of blazers and as unrealistic as you can get. An Oyama was a fraud anyway.

    I think all fighting has its merits, but none of it can ever be claimed as real simply because they all have rules. I read the other day MMA has more rules than golf! If they didn't have rules people would be getting killed which wouldn't really help would it? Each type of fighting has it's plus points in my opinion.

    Just a quick thought about the boxing/points fighting thing. I personally wouldn't hestitate in putting the current WKF champ in with say Amir Khan over one round at their weight. He might not beat Khan, but I think he'd do okay. Why? Because Khan fights a bit like a points fighter. He doesn't like getting hit, (who does?), and so he tries to score points more often than not, unless of course the other fighter just isn't up to it. Even under the same rules you can get different kinds of fighters with different skills.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2009
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Knockdown is's how I spar most of the time.
    But for actual real combat it's woefully inadequate.
    When people fight they are head punchers by and large. If you aren't pressure testing avoiding and countering headshots you're missing out on THE most important and fundamental skill of fighting (however you choose to define it).
    However knockdown does promote and improve some very important areas such as resilience, toughness, conditioning, versatility (more weapons and targets available), weapon formation and sheer heart. Important skills.
    Standard Karate sparring improves different skills...speed, explosiveness, commitment, evasion etc. Also important skills.
    To my mind it shouldn't be either/or.
    Do both. Do it all. Do boxing AND knockdown AND Karate kumite AND Thai style.
    If I ran a club that's what I'd do.
    I want to be explosive AND resilient etc, so why not pick and choose which style of sparring promotes the area you are seeking to improve as appropriate?

    Also...I think that modern kumite has virtually nothing to do with the karate that is recorded in the kata. So there is a disconnect there IMHO.
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    How many Shotokan karate-ka want to take part in 100, 200 and 300 man kumites? What does that prove? To be honest, I'm not planning on sticking around long enough to have to fight 300 people.

    Congratulations on completely missing the point. :)
    What does a 100 man kumite prove? That you are a legit badass. That you are one tough SOB.
    What does it prove to walk to the antartic or climb everest? To an outsider probably nothing...but to yourself it reveals something about the inner you.
    It's not about fighting per se but about what embarking on and completing a tough challenge can do for a person.
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    As for 100 man kumite, I personally think that is a load of b******* and as unrealistic as you can get.

    So says a man that probably couldn't even do a 10 man. :)
  17. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    puma (post #13) - watch the language please ;)
  18. kokuToraRyu

    kokuToraRyu Valued Member

    I am happy to discuss anything with Sensei Wayne as I am sure as a senior Karateka we will be able to discuss this without any issues.

    Regards Sosai Oyama, Calling him a Fraud on what grounds, just give me the links to the information and Court Cases which have proven him to be a fraud and I'll stand down in his defence.

    I am sure he was more of a Karateka than the founder of GKR

    My main issue is that the Kumite Competitions I am describing are usually attended by 3rd Kyu and above who in my opinion should have gone through alll the learning etc that you could say are a learning cycle, like learning to walk etc and be ready for the type of kumite that I am describing in Full Contact Kumite.

    I get fed up of People saying stuff about Karate and its down to this "tippy tappy bouncy bouncy" stuff that someone in their wisdom decided was a good thing.

    Look at TKD, Olympic style is nothing like Real TKD I know this for a fact

    Again thank you all for your input it is truly appreciated

  19. puma

    puma Valued Member

    Absolutely. That is the point. No one could. Not properly.

    As for Mr Otto, it wasn't a snotty comment. He is meant to be the best. He can hurt people I'm sure.

    I remember a kickboxer I knew said he was going to go in for a local points contest to show how weak points fighting was. He went to deliberately get DQ'ed, which was stupid in itself. He went charging in and got a broken jaw. The ref gave a point as it was his fault for rushing in. So it isn't always non-contact.

    Oyama. Well, he is meant to have fought all-comers, but there isn't actually any proof of this. One of his best students, (forgive me I forget his name but I believe he was Dutch or something, maybe someone can help me out on this), has said he was with him a lot of the time and he never fought anyone. I remember reading an article where Sensei Suzuki from Wado said Oyama asked to train with him, and Suzuki paired him up with one of his 2nd dans who beat the sock out of him. As for the bull-fighting, you only have to look at the footage of it to see that it wasn't right. In one clip, the bull looks so dopey that it wants to fall on it's side and have a kip, not fight. Chopping the tops of bottles and all the other tricks he did have also been exposed.

    How can you disrespect the founder of GKR like that? He is the greatest martial artist ever!:)
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2009
  20. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Define "properly".

    And the Dutch guy you are thinking of is John Bluming I believe.

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