Staff in various Kung Fu styles and Leopard Kung Fu

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Nykout, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    In that case I think you need to do some exploration of the grappling applications of the core CLF bridges, which is probably a bigger subject than we can cover here.
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Oh, bridging techniques..................Doh! Now I am getting it. Thanks!
  3. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    So one way that you can look at it is that snake techniques lend themselves to a soft bridge. Intercepting the limb at an angle that deflects or avoids force and then wrapping the limb. This could in part be due to the limited options of striking with force with a snake hand, it can be done - palm, chopping with the outside edge, ridge hand, or spear. But for practical reasons angles, ranges and targets are restricted.

    The panther hand can be used to strike pretty much any target from most angles and ranges, so it opens the possibility of initiating the bridge with a hard contact or strike, then following through with a grapple.

    Does anyone have any clips of snake or panther techniques for CLF?
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    This is the best example of a Hung Gar application of snake I could find. It is actually Catch Wrestling - but it is the same thing.

    Look at how the instructor uses his right arm to snake into the technique. Note how the thumb and fingers are on the same side of the grip, unlike the grip he has with his left hand. See how this allows the limbs to slide over each other removing all the slack, increasing the grip and the connection between his body and the partner. This is a quintessential part of snake technique in hung gar.

    The same movements are possible with a panther hand in stead of a snake hand. Although as mentioned earlier, the grip the hand provides is reduced.

    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  5. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    [ame=""]Choy Li Fut - Pau Ying Kuen Leopard Form - YouTube[/ame]
  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Out of interest is there a standard way of doing the leopard fist in CLF?

    In our heritage we do not do it as shown bellow. But i know of others that do.


    others do it like this. not how we do it either


    I am currently looking for an image of the way we do it. no luck so far. We make more of a fist, the fingers fold back further so that the fingers and thumb can touch. The thumb provides support and locks the fingers into place. The thumb is pushed down across the nails of the 1st and 2nd finger nearest the thumb. The tip of the thumb rests on the the 3rd finger.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Ben can you post any vids of clf panther or snake applications?
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    There's nothing much online.
    We press the pad of the thumb into the 2nd proximal interphalangeal joint to squeeze everything together.
  9. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Anything from another art that is similar enough to use as an example?
  10. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    How about these applications bellow. Less snake like than many of the hung techques but still snake hand - using friction to grip to create the lock.


    To masters grappling with snake technique. - not kidding this is what snake techniques should be like.

    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  11. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Hay Ben CLF how representative are the clf techniques above of clf in general?
  12. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    I'm on nights, I'll have a look tomorrow.
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Hey man I was specifically instructed that is the wrong way and you will break your knuckles. There was no way you could keep your hand in that position safely during a strike and it would just collapse. It's not supposed to be like a standard jab or punch more of a speedy rake with the knuckles or a body job into a soft spot, so the descriptions and pictures where the knuckles are instead compacted together into a tight cohesive whole is how it should be done. clearly this fist here would collapse on itself brother?

    In the Hung Gar leopard hand I was shown, it's similar to this and the thumb presses down on the tip of the index finger and this tightened cohesive fist is used to rake the face, or drive into soft spots in the tummy and so on. The first leopard fists are learned at the end of the Gung Gi Fook Fu and the beginning of the Tiger Crane Paired Fist. But again the key difference here from the first type above is that in this one, the tightened point of the row of 2nd knuckles are the striking surface, not the flats between the 1st and 2nd knuckle joint like the first picture above. That's clearly a recipe for breaking the bones. But you can do the 2nd type or your type as you've described it pretty hard into a heavy bag. I know I have without any problem, and it helps condition this type of fist. But it has to stay tight and a lot of muscular strength in the hand is necessary and has to be built up.

    I think this is functionally similar to the one just above, except you are not compacting the knuckles downward, but palmward? Either way, the striking surface still seems to be the 2nd knuckles of the four fingers, not the bone between that 1st and 2nd joint. That seems again to be like the first picture, an 'unwise' leopard shape fist and when I say unwise I don't mean to criticize anyone, but I was cautioned specifically against that. Either of the 2nd picture of Tom's description would fit my Hung gar leopard fist instruction. However there is one thing I just thought of, there is an ear strike with leopard fist ('bomb the ears' etc) that I think explains why the Hung Gar fist would keep the thumb out of the way and pressed above as opposed to across the fingers, if you did that leopard ear bombing strike you'd crush your thumb :D
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    It's 4 techniques from a massive system, there's a limit to how representative they can be.
  15. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Surly a fundamental is a fundamental. I posted two techniques from the hung gar system that are truly Representative of the fundamentals of how snake is used and explained in what way they were representative.

    Surely it should not be too difficult for you to do the same.
  16. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Interesting to see the interpretations of the hands.

    If I might, Tom's version of the leopard fist is more like the hand position for Kup choy or a ''fist slap'' type strike in CLF ( Looks sort of like this although in the picture the thumb isn't pulled across as much as we would normally place it (across the 2nd and 3rd finger tips).

    Just for interest, it is also very similar to the ginger fist and related hands used in short hand arts.

    Of course there are variations. The purpose of this hand striking positon might be seen as to allow one to hit with the middle knuckles, slide past the target and then reverse into a long arm backfist.

    On the other hand the more ''classical'' CLF leopard fist is used to extend the reach when throwing overhand strikes etc. Used very well by the Buck Sing lineage competitively without too many reported problems.. of course there was extensive training to make the hand capable of tolerating the strikes.

    Picking the target and when , as well as how, allows both versions of the leopard hand to be used effectively.

    I'm sure that there are other, possibly better explanations but I just wanted to point out that both hands exist in both CLF and HG lineages.

  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    You posted a video of generic CLF techniques and asked if they were representative of CLF.
    Are they representative of snake in CLF? The first one is, the rest aren't snake applications (one of them even says it's a crane application).
    The fundamental snake application in CLF is the straight punch.
    The principles associated with snake are Tsop (stab) Poon (encircle) and to a lesser extent Chuen (thread), although Chuen is typically primarily a dragon principle.
  18. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Great - got any clips showing - stabbing, encircling and / or threading? in the video of Clf I posted do any of the snake techniques contain them? Would the snake technique immediately after the crane technique be an example of encircling?


    What are the principles of leopard? How are they different from those of snake?

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