Sports Karate vs Original Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by shotokanster, Aug 5, 2011.

  1. shotokanster

    shotokanster New Member

    Hello fellow karateka's i recently watched a series called Kill Arman. He is a Finish Taylor who travels the world studying different forms of Martial Arts, any he went to Okinawa and trained with Zenpo Shimabakuro, and takamyagi at the Seibukan and Uch Ryu schools.

    I was surprised at the difference between their styles and the kind we do hear in the Uk. They had hardening like the Makiwara and they also struck each other to toughen up.Plus they did joint blocks using their limbs against an opponents limbs to condition.

    My question is should we incorporate this in the UK or would their be to many mothers that wouldn't bring their kids back as tghey think it is too rough?

    I'm just asking this as the striking side appeals to me and i may have to take up another martial art to be able to fulfill this.

  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    traditional karate exists everywhere, just look for it.
  3. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I imagine that the majority of mothers that send their little darlings to kiddy Karate would balk and pull their kids from class so fast that all that was left in their wake was a solitary spinning foam dipped boot at so much as the mere mention of real training. But those classes are what they are... and what they are is child care and exercise not martialarts training.
  4. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    It seems to me that there may be a lot of what seem like misconceptions tied up in this question.

    There isn't a "UK" style of karate - there are hundreds of different clubs, no two of which teach identically. Looking for what "we do in the UK" is like trying to answer "what colour is a bird?". Depends on the bird.

    Secondly, uechi ryu does seem to be pretty hardcore on the body conditioning, but there's no consensus that this is an especially wise thing to do. Sure, it looks cool, but I don't know how many people live a long and healthy life by practicing "body hardening" type conditioning or how vital it is to martial arts training.

    Thirdly, why would anyone have to teach this style of training to children? Most clubs tone down their training for children if they choose to teach children.

    Fourthly, this isn't really a "traditional" versus "sport" issue. Karate without makiwara isn't necessarily sport karate and karate with body hardening isn't necesarily traditional.
  5. shotokanster

    shotokanster New Member

    Ok Maybe my wording was poor for that i apologise. Is their any Karate clubs that let you use low leg/thigh kicks, axe kicks. Why have these incorporated in the Kata but you cant use them fighting?

    I know Kyokushin uses them but their are only a handfull of these clubs in Scotland. If anyone has seen this episode they will understand my question its as if all the good techniques have been removed and are only available in Okinawa.

    Please go easy on me as im only a beginner.
  6. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Yeah, one of the problems with kyokushin derivatives is that their internet presence far outstrips their real life availability. Chances are if you don't live in a large city, you won't find a club. You might be able to find a Thai boxing class though, and they do plenty of thigh kicking, if that's your preference.

    Out of interest, what kata do you practice that include axe kicks and thigh kicks?

    I wouldn't romanticise Okinawan karate too much. The TV show probably chose that specific club because they do particularly hardcore training. If you believe a lot of the history books, traditional Okinawan karate consisted of lots and lots of kata and very little kumite.
  7. jumpfor joy

    jumpfor joy Valued Member

    kick boxing

    kickboxing/ boxing you will get all the conditioning you need lol.
  8. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Most kata that involve sweep or crescent-type motions can be applied as thigh kicks I reckon, even if they're not strictly mawashi.
  9. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    cresent kick to the thigh? [insert dubious face here] :hat:
  10. Peter Lewis

    Peter Lewis Matira Matibay

    I know where Llama is coming from here. :cool:

    In the Filipino Martial Arts we have a Heel Hook, which is can be used in a crescent motion to drive the heel into the thigh. Very effective at standing grappling / elbow or knee striking range.
  11. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned


    Is that what you where refering to Lama?
  12. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Shotokan isn't known for thigh kicks and hardcore body conditioning , it's as simple as that , maybe a Goju ryu club ?

    Moosey dealt with this perfectly , so i'll just agree with what he said

    We all were once , don't worry , it's a reasonable question.
  13. shotokanster

    shotokanster New Member

    Cheers it was just that i thought i was missing out on a lot of things after watching this programme.
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    a question, shotokanster: how much do you know of karate history?
  15. shotokanster

    shotokanster New Member

    I'm not that well up on the history but i'll have a go. Chinese Bhuddist monks came to Okinawa and brought Chinese Martial arts which the Okinawans developed further thus becomming Karate. The modern father being Fuankoshi(sp) who in turn taught Enoeda who in turn taught our Club founder.

    I am all ears Fish if you could enlighten me!
  16. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    Gichin Funakoshi. He taught my senseis' teachers as well. One was Enoeda and the other was Hidetaka Nishiyama.
  17. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Didn't Gichin Funakoshi basically frack katare in the **** with his adaptation for the school system?
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    ooohhh boy, there's a lot to say here (and others more qualified than me to give you the most valid account of the details).

    a simplified low-down on things: okinawa was a separate kingdom from japan (until the samurai pwned them) and traded with a good portion of south-east asia. there were diplomatic envoys and traders from china who visited or were stationed in okinawa. many of these trained different styles of kung fu. usually it is said that karate has "monk fist" influence, but this could be anything, really, as the term is too vague and there isn't really a "monk fist" kung fu style, barring perhaps lohanquan (lohan means arhat), as well as possible influence of five ancestors fist and white crane (in fact there are forms in some styles that are adapted from white crane forms taught by a man called go kenki). in okinawa there were three major places of karate development: shuri, the capital city, from where the shuri-te style developed (later to spawn shorin-ryu and and influence shotokan and ****o-ryu), the town/city of naha, from where naha-te developed (spawning goju-ryu and tou'on-ryu and influencing ****o-ryu), and the neighbourhood of tomari within naha, which if memory serves had its own residing practitioners with their own developments (there are many kata and variants acknowledged to come from tomari), although everyone travelled and learned everywhere, so this is all mostly a generalization, and there are forms of karate that aren't really pidgeonholed into any single city-specific style (for example uechi-ryu was, if i'm not mistaken, developed directly out of a chinese style).
    when karate was introduced to the japanese mainland, some instructors are acknowledged to have been the main propagators (although i do believe that there were one or two that preceded them in teaching in the mainland). among these was gichin funakoshi, who taught shorin-ryu, but called it simply "karate" because he wanted unity and not style rivalry. funakoshi wrote using the pen name "shoto", therefore his dojo was nicknamed "shotokan" or "the house of shoto", hence the name "shotokan karate", adopted by his students.
    some time after the introduction of karate to mainland japan, it was presented to the emperor during a demonstration, and it was here that the styles were formally institutionalized. there are four styles that were presented, to my knowledge (and are generally considered the "big four" in terms of notoriety): kenwa mabuni's ****o-ryu, gichin funakoshi's shotokan, chojun miyagi's goju-ryu, and hironori ohtsuka's wado-ryu (this being a modified version of funakoshi's branch of shorin-ryu, combined with ohtsuka's prior training in koryu bujutsu, which are the old martial arts styles of japan).
    around and after this time, funakoshi's karate starts to change, although there is dispute about the source, most, afaik attributing it to his son gigo, these changes being namely the widening of the stances and movements and the emphasis on linear power generation, marking the shift away from shorin-ryu (this is why wado-ryu looks so different even though ohtsuka was a student of funakoshi and the bulk of the style comes from early shotokan).
    a governing body for shotokan is created, called the japan karate association, which eventually creates (i think this was after funakoshi's death) an instructor training program (now famous and infamous in equal measure), from which came the first waves of karate instructors to go to the west, among them enoeda. the JKA sent so many instructors out earlier than other schools did, that it resulted in shotokan karate now being quite possibly the most widespread karate style in the world, although karate as a whole now has a worldwide presence that is staggering in magnitude.
    the sport karate you claim to train in has its roots in the early tournament circuits, also organized by the JKA, but having not really weathered the pass of time very well, in my opinion, with a shift in kata being done as a performance art (then again kata is a controversial topic :p), and kumite shifting further away from the original "let's go and beat each other up" form the original "modern" shotokan guys did it.

    this is what it looked like way back:

    [ame=""]‪Yahara sensei, age 26 in 1973 more about karate at:‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪Kagawa v Ogura‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]‪1987 JKA All Japan's Men's Kata finals‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪Shotokan Kata Unsu by Yahara‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪JKA National Championships 1988 Mimura wins Kata Women‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪Women's kata final 1987 JKA All Japan's‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    this is what it looks like now:

    [ame=""]‪JKA Karate Kumite - Japan‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪JKA female kata fainal Shirota( Gojushiho-sho)城田é¸æ‰‹ã€€äº”åå››æ*©å°‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪Shiina Sensei performing Shotokan Kata Jitte‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪JKA 53rd All Japan Championships Male Kata Semi-Final 2 Kata Empi‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪49th JKA Kazuaki Kurihara kata Sochin‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    also, study this guy: masatoshi nakayama. VERY important figure in the development of modern shotokan:

    [ame=""]‪Masatoshi Nakayama - Karate Do - Shotokan‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪Old Tekki Sandan shotokan karate kata jka‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame=""]‪JKA Sensei Nakayama in 1968 .mp4‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    hope that helps, and other more knowledgeable people will be here shortly to clean up and erroneous info i might have given. you'll have to do your own research to find stuff in real detail though. i recommend you take a look through the site for some good resources, as well as talking to some of the resident shoto guys (jwt, llamageddon, moosey, bassai, etc).
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2011
  19. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    nah, that was itosu. and he didn't really do that much to it. everything nasty is still there :D
  20. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    Clap clap clap. :) well done fishy :D

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